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a little teaser...

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Beedub
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Re: a little teaser...

Post by Beedub » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:31 pm

a11y wrote:
Beedub wrote:More pics needed right now please!!!!
I get the impression Beedub is getting a bit excited about this :D
lol!!! i am!! more importantly this offers us a brake upgrade that wont cost the earth and is effective, even thought i have driven a stock setup with uprated lines, pads, discs n fluid and the can honestly say that was a fab setup imo, but this pushes the envelope further without costing the earth, this type of mod is imo perfect for the z4m, i for one cant wait to see it in person, the only thing i dont like is having to space my alloys as i hate the use of spacers on heavily tracked cars.

OP keep up the good work, i will most likely be attending sunday to see this setup and we can talk costings.
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Cheburator
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Re: a little teaser...

Post by Cheburator » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:38 pm

cj10jeeper wrote:
Ha ha - best do some testing on a quiet piece of road to see what pedal feel is like. I had some horrors like changing rear drums to disk and being able to lock the rears with a feather on the pedals. Also had residual pressure valves in lines that meant they never loosened off when you lifted. Ended up with bias valves and all sorts of fun.

AP will almost certainly tune their kit to the Zed master cylinder. In your case if the piston area of the Porsche replacements is the same as AP or OEM you'll be pretty much good to go :thumbsup:
The kit feels great on my brother's Z3M Coupe and on my friend's CSL... Pedal feel is unchanged at all, but stopping power has been massively improved... Thus I am making a good educated guess that I will be OK with pedal feel and effort required.
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Beedub
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Re: a little teaser...

Post by Beedub » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:15 pm

cheburator, can you post some more detailed pics when possible please.
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Re: a little teaser...

Post by Cheburator » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:17 pm

Beedub wrote:cheburator, can you post some more detailed pics when possible please.
Fronts are going on tomorrow hopefully, thus I will post pics when the job is done
:thumbsup:
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Monaco Blue BMW M5 Touring - family bus
Slate Grey Porsche 928 GT-RS - VLN race car
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Imola Red BMW Z4MC - sold

Kryton

Re: a little teaser...

Post by Kryton » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:22 pm

Cheburator wrote: :) I can supply the brackets and bolts, which means that eBay is your friend with regards to the calipers. Alternatively, I can supply new calipers from Porsche on top of the brackets and bolts, but the costs will go up.

I will not become rich overnight with this kit, but I would be happy if I can offset some of the costs of my brake upgrade.
Hello sorry about this

I presume you will take out 'Product Liability Insurance' etc, if not be prepared to sell your car and house to meet any litigation costs if any brackets fail which result in the car crashing and maiming someone.

Afraid you are entering a costly minefield.

Believe me I am only trying to help you :thumbsup:

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tjlazer
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a little teaser...

Post by tjlazer » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:15 pm

Kryton is correct in that from a legal perspective even if the brackets are sold for use "at your own risk" you cannot waive liability for personal injury or death caused by your negligence under English law...whether such a link could be proven is another matter. Probably worth supplying through a company to avoid the personal liability element if this is a concern. Anyways where were we? Those Porsche brakes would look superb on any ZM!
WAS: black on black MR with carbon trim. NOW: IB/Champagne/Carbon ZMC

Kryton

Re: a little teaser...

Post by Kryton » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:28 pm

tjlazer wrote:Kryton is correct in that from a legal perspective even if the brackets are sold for use "at your own risk" you cannot waive liability for personal injury or death caused by your negligence under English law...whether such a link could be proven is another matter. Probably worth supplying through a company to avoid the personal liability element if this is a concern.
If the design of the bracket's is the OP's it would still be a minefield, in anycase I would not supply anyone just to be safe.

And yes the Porsche brakes do look good, will be glad when they are on my next car.

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Re: a little teaser...

Post by Cheburator » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:37 pm

Kryton wrote:
tjlazer wrote:Kryton is correct in that from a legal perspective even if the brackets are sold for use "at your own risk" you cannot waive liability for personal injury or death caused by your negligence under English law...whether such a link could be proven is another matter. Probably worth supplying through a company to avoid the personal liability element if this is a concern.
If the design of the bracket's is the OP's it would still be a minefield, in anycase I would not supply anyone just to be safe.

And yes the Porsche brakes do look good, will be glad when they are on my next car.
You do raise valid points and I agree with all of them. I do wonder how it works in practice. Friend of mine rolled a Clio race car on a track day because the brand new rear wheel bearing seized solid in the middle of a 110mph right hander. The car is a write off, but by the sounds of it, he has no real comeback against the bearing manufacturer since proving that there was a fault in the manufacturing process is strenious at best...

I wonder whether many suppliers of motorsport parts are hiding behind lack of product liability cover by saying that motorsport is dangerous blah-blah and that their product is only for motorsport use? It is a very gray area, isn't it?

Btw, the designer of the brackets is not me, but a famous supplier of kits. However, the thinking behind them fitting our car with zero mods is most certainly mine. I only went down the route after said supplier refused to supply separate brackets and offered me a kit, which is actually inferior to what I have ended up with.
Power Is Nothing Without Insanity
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mikem7709
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Re: a little teaser...

Post by mikem7709 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:36 pm

Why not use GT3 callipers ? It seems daft using callipers that were designed for a lighter and less powerful car ??

Not sure what size discs the 4 piston callipers use but even 996 turbo discs were only 330mm, so I would`ve thought the clamping area is quite small on those.

I don`t understand why people say the braking is much stronger with bigger brakes, it can`t be. Brake force can only be as high as the friction between your tyre and road and the OEM set up is more than capable of locking the wheels, sure you`ll get some fade with the OEM pads and a soft pedal eventually with OEM fluid but I`ve done SPA, Croft, `Ring, Oulton on completely standard kit with no problems at all.

Looks on the other hand is another matter. 8)

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Re: a little teaser...

Post by Cheburator » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:27 am

mikem7709 wrote:Why not use GT3 callipers ? It seems daft using callipers that were designed for a lighter and less powerful car ??

Not sure what size discs the 4 piston callipers use but even 996 turbo discs were only 330mm, so I would`ve thought the clamping area is quite small on those.

I don`t understand why people say the braking is much stronger with bigger brakes, it can`t be. Brake force can only be as high as the friction between your tyre and road and the OEM set up is more than capable of locking the wheels, sure you`ll get some fade with the OEM pads and a soft pedal eventually with OEM fluid but I`ve done SPA, Croft, `Ring, Oulton on completely standard kit with no problems at all.

Looks on the other hand is another matter. 8)
you need to read my posts more carefully. A GT3 sized pad is too much for our disc and will kill it with too much heat. Neither the Cayman S or 996 is lighter than our cars, thus even the small kit is adequate. As I said before - if it is good enough for some of the smaller teams with E46 M3s in the VLN, then it is good enough for me. The clamping area on the 996 caliper is still a lot bigger than the BMW one. Moreover, BMW are using leverage via bigger diameter discs, Porsche used friction via bigger pad area on the 996TT. Ultimately the BMW disc is the better solution as it is lighter and provides the same stopping power.

As with regards to the Ring or Spa - both are fast, flowing circuits which are not demanding on brakes. So are Croft and Oulton. Try Anglesey, Cadwell or Brands and let me know what happened? It also depends on how fast were you going... ;)
Power Is Nothing Without Insanity
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Imola Red BMW Z4MC - sold

mikem7709
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Re: a little teaser...

Post by mikem7709 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:16 am

Cayman S has a curb weight of 1340 KGs, not sure about a regular Carrera but a C4 is only 1550 KGs and that had ~ 20 HP less.

My Brembo Monoblocks have a pad length of almost 9"s and sit on 355mm discs so I wouldn't say a GT3 calliper is too big providing pad compound is judged well.

I don't know whether a BMW 345mm disc is lighter than a Porsche 330mm one, yes the BMW is a floating design but the bell is still as heavy and obviously the disc is larger.

There's a company in the US offering the kit for E36/Z3 for a long time now, so pretty sure they could supply carriers to the E46/Z4 if you don't want to get involved with the liability mentioned earlier. Godspeed in Bridgend will also do the work (they've recently made some custom bells/carriers for a friend to move his Brembo kit from his M5 to his X5).



If I wanted to spend time at Cadwell or Anglesey I'd buy a bike or something a lot lighter.

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Re: a little teaser...

Post by Cheburator » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:29 am

Answers below in bold
mikem7709 wrote:Cayman S has a curb weight of 1340 KGs, not sure about a regular Carrera but a C4 is only 1550 KGs and that had ~ 20 HP less.

My Z4MC came at 1475kg on the scales with 30ltrs of fuel. Almost no options except Bluetooth and PDC

My Brembo Monoblocks have a pad length of almost 9"s and sit on 355mm discs so I wouldn't say a GT3 calliper is too big providing pad compound is judged well.

Trust me, it is. The OEM BMW disc set up has been tried with Big Reds,996TT,StopTech 40 and 996C2 calipers. All on Pagid RS29. The first two, the pads are simply too big for the disc. The StopTech caliper is too expensive for the same pad area as the 996C2

I don't know whether a BMW 345mm disc is lighter than a Porsche 330mm one, yes the BMW is a floating design but the bell is still as heavy and obviously the disc is larger.

The BMW disc is a lot lighter than the Porsche one since the hat is made of aluminium alloy and the Porsche one is cast iron. You are looking at 500gr difference per disc. The BMW disc is also thinner at 28mm vs. 32mm for the Porsche one. Lastly, the BMW disc swept area is smaller than the Porsche one.

There's a company in the US offering the kit for E36/Z3 for a long time now, so pretty sure they could supply carriers to the E46/Z4 if you don't want to get involved with the liability mentioned earlier. Godspeed in Bridgend will also do the work (they've recently made some custom bells/carriers for a friend to move his Brembo kit from his M5 to his X5).

I know I can get brackets made by a ton of companies out there. That was not the point of this exercise as they charge an arm and a leg for their services and usually want a minimum order of say 20 to make it even remotely viable for us. I am not into this to make money - my day job, touching wood, is keeping me well fed and entertained so far - but wanted to recoup some of the costs of the upgrade.

If I wanted to spend time at Cadwell or Anglesey I'd buy a bike or something a lot lighter.

Agree... I just wanted to highlight what was happening to me the minute I started doing UK track days in the Z4MC, following 7yrs lapping the Ring and nothing else in various cars...

Power Is Nothing Without Insanity
_______________________________________
Monaco Blue BMW M5 Touring - family bus
Slate Grey Porsche 928 GT-RS - VLN race car
Polar Silver Porsche 928 GTS 5spd - Sunday best
Imola Red BMW Z4MC - sold

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Re: a little teaser...

Post by mikem7709 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:59 pm

The drawings are the important thing, with them I`d expect you could get any good machining shop to make them up for ~ £100 a pair.

The Z4M wheels have a lower offset than the CSL`s so you would probably get away with a 10mm spacer ? Wonder if an aftermarket wheel with a 35+ would squeeze over them ? I`d actually be quite interested in a set of 4 carriers if you do go ahead with it.

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Re: a little teaser...

Post by Cheburator » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:53 pm

mikem7709 wrote:The drawings are the important thing, with them I`d expect you could get any good machining shop to make them up for ~ £100 a pair.

The Z4M wheels have a lower offset than the CSL`s so you would probably get away with a 10mm spacer ? Wonder if an aftermarket wheel with a 35+ would squeeze over them ? I`d actually be quite interested in a set of 4 carriers if you do go ahead with it.
Sadly they want more than £100 per pair of brackets, believe it or not! I have the CAD drawings :)

You need 15mm spacers to fit standard Z4MC/R wheels over the fronts, the rears will clear the Brembo caliper without the need for a spacer. I went with 15mm extra spacing all round for aesthetic purposes.

I will go ahead and offer the carriers, but wanted to mount the fronts first. Was meant to do it last night, but my 4mths old baby daughter took proceedings into her hands so to speak, so it will be tomorrow night...
Power Is Nothing Without Insanity
_______________________________________
Monaco Blue BMW M5 Touring - family bus
Slate Grey Porsche 928 GT-RS - VLN race car
Polar Silver Porsche 928 GTS 5spd - Sunday best
Imola Red BMW Z4MC - sold

aml_al
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Re: a little teaser...

Post by aml_al » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:00 pm

Any images of these yet? :)
z4mc
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