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Energy costs (again)

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pvr
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Energy costs (again)

Post by pvr » Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:28 pm

That is the bit often ignored - bit like new sceptic tanks that fail to mention the amount of electricity they use to run.
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Energy costs (again)

Post by Nanu » Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:08 pm

You should definitely do your research before fitting heat pumps.

It's not only the pump itself that needs fitting, I was told all the pipes also had to be replaced to a larger bore which in my home would mean ripping up all the wood floors. You should also find one that has already been fitted as they are not exactly quiet.
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Energy costs (again)

Post by pvr » Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:34 pm

Ah yes, the noise. A holiday place I went to had one and it was very noisy (and very cold in the house with only underfloor heating which never seemed to get that warm)
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Energy costs (again)

Post by Pondrew » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:12 pm

pvr wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:28 pm That is the bit often ignored - bit like new sceptic tanks that fail to mention the amount of electricity they use to run.
New sceptic tanks (or even septic :P ) are called 'packaged waste treatment plants' and only need a small air pump to operate. For a house of up to 8 occupants, they use around 60 watts per hour. Not exactly straining the grid, or the wallet.
pvr wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:34 pm Ah yes, the noise. A holiday place I went to had one and it was very noisy (and very cold in the house with only underfloor heating which never seemed to get that warm)
While I agree ASHPs are shite, the noise is not an issue. The average 20kW packaged outdoor unit will run normally at around 50 decibels (that is less than most people's background noise). They will increase to around 60 dB on the highest fan speed.

BTW I have installed a packaged treatment plant and I install heat pumps for a living! :thumbsup:
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Energy costs (again)

Post by Pondrew » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:32 pm

Nanu wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:08 pm I was told all the pipes also had to be replaced to a larger bore which in my home would mean ripping up all the wood floors.
That is not true.
To retro-fit a 'standard' wet heating system to an ASHP you would need to replace all radiators to larger capacity, yes, but the general pipework (28mm to 22mm to 15mm) is perfectly sufficient.
ASHPs can only heat the water to around 55 deg C (it's a very boring physics thing), as opposed to 85 ish for a heat exchanger boiler. Therefore your delta T is a lot lower than normal (temp difference of room and heating medium). To counteract this, the surface area of the medium (radiators) needs to be a lot larger.

You can use a cascade system ASHP to raise the water flow temperature, but these are eye-wateringly expensive and use even more leccy than a standard single ASHP. And still don't work properly when it's cold outside! :(
Last edited by Pondrew on Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Energy costs (again)

Post by Nictrix » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:33 pm

Pondrew wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:12 pm
BTW I have installed a packaged treatment plant and I install heat pumps for a living! :thumbsup:
Do you have one in your own home?
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Energy costs (again)

Post by pvr » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:37 pm

Pondy - that is £262 per year versus nothing for the system I have now :poke:

50db is quite loud though? On the table I looked at that is the sound of a dishwasher.

In the holiday place it was right under the bedroom window and the kicking in and out of the fan was rather annoying, and that was in the winter with the window only a small bit open.
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Energy costs (again)

Post by Pondrew » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:40 pm

Nictrix wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:33 pm Do you have one in your own home?
Nope; because they are shite.
I fought tooth and nail with my local Council when I built my last house, as the 'regs' say a new build has to have one. I eventually managed to make the 'numbers' work for them so they allowed me to put a lovely new, planet-killing, oil-fired boiler in. It worked beautifully and still creates less CO2 than an ASHP (which wouldn't work properly) would.

We are doomed. The people who adopt these 'green' ideas have no clue. But the 'green' installers are making a very handsome living, without a care for the 'planet'!

This is not my opinion, this a hard fact; unfortunately. :(
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Energy costs (again)

Post by Nictrix » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:46 pm

Pondrew wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:40 pm
Nictrix wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:33 pm Do you have one in your own home?
Nope; because they are shite.
I fought tooth and nail with my local Council when I built my last house, as the 'regs' say a new build has to have one. I eventually managed to make the 'numbers' work for them so they allowed me to put a lovely new, planet-killing, oil-fired boiler in. It worked beautifully and still creates less CO2 than an ASHP (which wouldn't work properly) would.

We are doomed. The people who adopt these 'green' ideas have no clue. But the 'green' installers are making a very handsome living, without a care for the 'planet'!

This is not my opinion, this a hard fact; unfortunately. :(
That must be a hard job installing something that you think is rubbish.
How do you sleep at night :lol:
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Energy costs (again)

Post by Pondrew » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:51 pm

pvr wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:37 pm Pondy - that is £262 per year versus nothing for the system I have now

50db is quite loud though? On the table I looked at that is the sound of a dishwasher.

In the holiday place it was right under the bedroom window and the kicking in and out of the fan was rather annoying, and that was in the winter with the window only a small bit open.
Us with mains sewerage pay around that to the water board to get rid of the waste. Also, you don't have to install a new septic tank if nothing changes. The new regs are only implemented if you move and generally the new owners would have to address it.

If you sited your dishwasher outside, I doubt you would hear it.
Decibels are always quoted at a distance. Generally at 1, or 2m (dBa and dBb but it's sound pressure so gets complicated). I have to do this noise shite a lot for planning and building regs approval.
I installed a/c in one of my houses once (which use the same type of outdoor units as ASHPs). All were sited outside bedrooms. I never noticed a thing TBH.
All good things come to those who wait. I'm really impatient which explains a lot.

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Energy costs (again)

Post by Pondrew » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:53 pm

Nictrix wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:46 pm That must be a hard job installing something that you think is rubbish.
How do you sleep at night
I don't install ASHPs, I install air to air heat pumps (air conditioning). They are the same thing only one uses air and the other uses water as a medium.

The physics is very different with air and water; that's why one works and the other just doesn't. :D
All good things come to those who wait. I'm really impatient which explains a lot.

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Energy costs (again)

Post by Nanu » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:45 pm

I bow to your obviously superior knowledge on ASHP's.
I was only repeating what a heating engineer told me. It would appear he was of the same view that they are useless and was discouraging me from even considering one. (Which I wasn't).

The noise aspect would put me off anyway. We spend as much time as possible in our garden and I must say, I prefer quiet or birdsong to any background noise from a ASHP.

Fortunately, I am again told that my current gas boiler can easily be converted to hydrogen cheaply. Hopefully when the time comes, that will be an alternative. Either that or I will have kicked off these mortal coils and it won't matter anyway.
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Energy costs (again)

Post by MikeyH » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:12 am

Our heating engineer said the same, avoid. Don’t produce enough heat and are noisy and expensive to install.
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Energy costs (again)

Post by Argyll Andy » Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:16 pm

Smartbear wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:19 pm
pvr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:56 pm Oh, never got the £400 for elec nor the £100 for oil. Still not sorted out by Scottish Power.
The oil payment has now increased to £200 since the budget, no news on when or how payment will be made though.
Rob
Rob, mine dropped into my bank account this morning and I’ve just had an email from my energy provider saying I will receive it.

No previous correspondence, claim or communication just the payment today :thumbsup:

Just going to call oil supplier and see ppl and if ok order £200 worth

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