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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Alloy wheels and tyre discussion
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///MBan
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by ///MBan » Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:27 am

On my Z4 M Coupe I'm running 8,000 tonne die forged Advan RS-DF in 18 x 8.5 +35 and 18 x 9.5 +22. These are really light (I measured them at 7.9kg/17.4lb at the front and 8.3kg/18.3lb at the rear) and super strong due to the forging process. However, I think the front offset could do with being a few mm lower to push the wheel further out. There are pretty much no options for die forged wheels in an 8.5 width (or a 9 inch) with an offset lower than +35 but not too crazy low. The only one I am aware of is the BBS RG-R which comes in a +30, but they are relatively heavy (9.2kg according to BBS and I'd wager they're actually heavier) and for the M you need to get the 10 inch rear which weighs 9.6kg. And, the BBS wheels require hub rings.

Through an Australian company that imports car parts from Japan I found out about a company called TWS Forged (not TSW!). These guys do proper die forged wheels and one of their models (the T66-F) is super lightweight and can be made in custom offsets if you buy a certain number of sets (I've been told 5 sets is enough). For reference the T66-F in an 18 x 8.5 +35 weighs 6.99kg/15.4lb and an 18 x 9.5 +22 weighs 7.97kg/17.6lb. Hub-centric, so no need for hub rings.

So, I'm wondering if anyone else would be interested in ordering a set? Prices are about 91,000 yen per wheel.

Since the Z4 M and non-M take the same wheel at the front, this is open to all Zs, but it would mean we would have to agree to a front wheel specification and then pick the rears from the standard sizes TWS do. If five M owners are keen, we could get custom rears as well, but to be honest, 9.5 +22 fits pretty well. The TWS T66-F custom menu has some really nice custom colours, but if we pick an off the shelf rear wheel (colour and offset), we would have to pick the same standard colour for the custom offset fronts.

Over the last couple of months I have been testing a bunch of different front offsets using spacers. Effectively, I've tried 8.5 +23, +25, +27.5 and +30. I've done some heavy cornering and got quite a bit of rubbing on the arch liner (to the front of the wheel, where that little round push clip joins the liner to the guard) with the +23, a bit with the +25 but was fine with the other two offsets. For reference, I'm on KW V3s, 10mm lower than stock at the front, -2 degrees of camber, 235 40 R18 tyres and I used a heat gun on the arch liner to free up a couple more mm. Based on this, I'd be happy with an offset of +28 or 2mm either side.

Here is the T66-F page (sorry - it's in Japanese):
https://www.tws-forged.com/tws_t66-f.html

And here is the 'custom' page:
https://www.tws-forged.com/tws_t66-f_custom.html

Finally, here is a Youtube review:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge8QjcaqpP8[/youtube]

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axelleveau
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by axelleveau » Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:25 am

What is your reason for not just keeping a 5 or 7mm spacer? If they are aluminium they can't add that mugh weight. :?
Gone - Ford Ka MK2 Petrol - Black
Will hang around to carry materials/people and in emergency - Ford Fiesta MK7 1.0 Ecoboost - Black, white rally rims, white decals, remapped
Now - Z4 Coupe - Montego Blue: Here

///MBan
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by ///MBan » Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:31 am

axelleveau wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:25 am What is your reason for not just keeping a 5 or 7mm spacer? If they are aluminium they can't add that mugh weight. :?
Spacers are illegal where I live (Western Australia). I'm also generally a bit wary of spacers (I know, lots of people use them with no problems).

So, the ideal situation is hub-centric, correct PCD and correct offset so you don't have to add or do anything special to fit the wheels. Hence this thread!

BTZ461
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by BTZ461 » Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:44 am

///MBan wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:31 am
axelleveau wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:25 am What is your reason for not just keeping a 5 or 7mm spacer? If they are aluminium they can't add that mugh weight. :?
Spacers are illegal where I live (Western Australia). I'm also generally a bit wary of spacers (I know, lots of people use them with no problems).

So, the ideal situation is hub-centric, correct PCD and correct offset so you don't have to add or do anything special to fit the wheels. Hence this thread!
I would recommend Apex wheels either the Arc8 or EC7 ET35 on the front is good. Running on our 4M coupe. The weight advantage is there too with flow formed construction. Fronts in your size 8.3kg. Quite a few of your fellow countrymen are running Apex rims. We have about six or seven sets in the workshop. Spacers with long bolts, been using them for years, in the UK and here in NZ.
And they are are third of the price of the TSW or whatever they are. Go with a style and manufacturer that has been proven over time to be extremely successful. And compliments our cars :D

///MBan
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by ///MBan » Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:45 pm

BTZ461 wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:44 am
///MBan wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:31 am
axelleveau wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:25 am What is your reason for not just keeping a 5 or 7mm spacer? If they are aluminium they can't add that mugh weight. :?
Spacers are illegal where I live (Western Australia). I'm also generally a bit wary of spacers (I know, lots of people use them with no problems).

So, the ideal situation is hub-centric, correct PCD and correct offset so you don't have to add or do anything special to fit the wheels. Hence this thread!
I would recommend Apex wheels either the Arc8 or EC7 ET35 on the front is good. Running on our 4M coupe. The weight advantage is there too with flow formed construction. Fronts in your size 8.3kg. Quite a few of your fellow countrymen are running Apex rims. We have about six or seven sets in the workshop. Spacers with long bolts, been using them for years, in the UK and here in NZ.
And they are are third of the price of the TSW or whatever they are. Go with a style and manufacturer that has been proven over time to be extremely successful. And compliments our cars :D
Thanks - the ARC 8s do look good and I did think about them, but even their new-ish forged wheel is (I think) billet forged, rather than die forged and their offsets still aren't quite right unless you're willing to go to a 9 inch wheel, which I'm not really interested in :)

TWS has a long and rich history of producing wheels for motorsport, they just haven't been in retail wheels for that long and haven't tried to move their products out of Japan.

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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by BTZ461 » Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:32 pm

///MBan wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:45 pm
BTZ461 wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:44 am
///MBan wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:31 am

Spacers are illegal where I live (Western Australia). I'm also generally a bit wary of spacers (I know, lots of people use them with no problems).

So, the ideal situation is hub-centric, correct PCD and correct offset so you don't have to add or do anything special to fit the wheels. Hence this thread!
I would recommend Apex wheels either the Arc8 or EC7 ET35 on the front is good. Running on our 4M coupe. The weight advantage is there too with flow formed construction. Fronts in your size 8.3kg. Quite a few of your fellow countrymen are running Apex rims. We have about six or seven sets in the workshop. Spacers with long bolts, been using them for years, in the UK and here in NZ.
And they are are third of the price of the TSW or whatever they are. Go with a style and manufacturer that has been proven over time to be extremely successful. And compliments our cars :D
Thanks - the ARC 8s do look good and I did think about them, but even their new-ish forged wheel is (I think) billet forged, rather than die forged and their offsets still aren't quite right unless you're willing to go to a 9 inch wheel, which I'm not really interested in :)

TWS has a long and rich history of producing wheels for motorsport, they just haven't been in retail wheels for that long and haven't tried to move their products out of Japan.
I hope you, and your wallet especially survive the experience :D

///MBan
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by ///MBan » Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:41 pm

The wheels are about the same price as Rays Volks, so they're pretty reasonably priced for what you get... and less than half the price of Forgeline and HRE, which is where you need to go for custom offsets.

///MBan
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by ///MBan » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:12 pm

I just checked the Rays Japan website and there is now effectively no direct fit Volk wheels for Z4Ms unless you can fit a 9inch +23 wheel on the front, which is pretty aggressive. I'm not as familiar with non-M fitments but in general 5x120 with a 72.6mm centre bore is pretty much only available in M2 fitment.

Advan seems to be going the same way, although I think they do still have a couple of wheels that work.

The second hand market is pretty variable as well. I check Yahoo Japan every couple of weeks and see virtually nothing in our specifications.

I don't want to be over-dramatic but very soon it will be impossible to buy direct-fit wheels for our cars that are made to the highest specification (i.e. 8,000 tonne die forged). I'm planning to keep my car until I can't physically get in it anymore, so that's a sobering thought to me.

BTZ461
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by BTZ461 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:01 am

///MBan wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:12 pm I just checked the Rays Japan website and there is now effectively no direct fit Volk wheels for Z4Ms unless you can fit a 9inch +23 wheel on the front, which is pretty aggressive. I'm not as familiar with non-M fitments but in general 5x120 with a 72.6mm centre bore is pretty much only available in M2 fitment.

Advan seems to be going the same way, although I think they do still have a couple of wheels that work.

The second hand market is pretty variable as well. I check Yahoo Japan every couple of weeks and see virtually nothing in our specifications.

I don't want to be over-dramatic but very soon it will be impossible to buy direct-fit wheels for our cars that are made to the highest specification (i.e. 8,000 tonne die forged). I'm planning to keep my car until I can't physically get in it anymore, so that's a sobering thought to me.
I just don't get your love for these wheels. Aside from cost, the aesthetics are not as pleasing as other options readily available. Really, 8000 tonne die forged. Overkill much? :?

///MBan
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by ///MBan » Sun Aug 28, 2022 2:13 am

BTZ461 wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:01 am I just don't get your love for these wheels. Aside from cost, the aesthetics are not as pleasing as other options readily available. Really, 8000 tonne die forged. Overkill much? :?
The 8,000 tonne die forging is just an indicator of the strength and weight that you can achieve

Why would you not want to have the lightest and strongest, particularly if you you are going to keep the car in the long-term? :)

Looks are an individual thing, obviously. I think the T66-F looks pretty good and the pictures on the TWS website don't do them justice.

As for other options being available, I'm struggling to find any. Apex make a 9 inch +30 wheel, but with KW V3s on my car, I'm not sure they'll fit and then I'd be back to needing spacers and probably rub on the arch liner. BBS LM-R has the right widths and offsets, but only in 19 inch.

Enkei NT03s come in the specs I'm looking for, but they're heavy. Three-piece wheels can often be made in customisable offsets (think Work, HRE, Forgeline), but, again, are heavy.

I'm not discounting Forgeline wheels completely, but I don't think they have many styles that would suit a Z4 in their one-piece lineup. Personal preference, though.

Genuine question: what reasonably light wheels have you seen (forged or not) that have the specs I'm looking for?

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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by BTZ461 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:58 am

None really, answering your question.
We run Apex wheels, either in the EC7 or ARC8 style. Max 18" (19" seems too large in diameter, especially on the eye.)
Perfect for all our requirements, we have not bothered messing about with coil over suspension systems. Seems to work well on the E46 M3, and the two E86's.
And suit our wallets too. Its a question of compromise, the Z4M runs 9 inch ET42 to the front and spaced at 15mm with extended bolts. 10 inch rear ET25. The E86 3,0 si runs 18x8,5 and 9,5 ET35 from memory and spacers at 15mm. Both cars running Koni shocks, so adjustable.
But hey ho, folks have differing opinions and that makes life interesting :)

///MBan
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by ///MBan » Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:46 am

BTZ461 wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:58 am None really, answering your question.
We run Apex wheels, either in the EC7 or ARC8 style. Max 18" (19" seems too large in diameter, especially on the eye.)
Perfect for all our requirements, we have not bothered messing about with coil over suspension systems. Seems to work well on the E46 M3, and the two E86's.
And suit our wallets too. Its a question of compromise, the Z4M runs 9 inch ET42 to the front and spaced at 15mm with extended bolts. 10 inch rear ET25. The E86 3,0 si runs 18x8,5 and 9,5 ET35 from memory and spacers at 15mm. Both cars running Koni shocks, so adjustable.
But hey ho, folks have differing opinions and that makes life interesting :)
Exactly - what I'm after is not going to be for everyone (or anyone), but I thought I'd ask. :)

How do you run a 9 inch on the front of your Z4M with an effective offset of +27? Skinny tyres? Lots of camber? Rolled arch? Removed arch liner? When I tried an 8.5inch with an effective offset of +23 (equivalent to a 9 inch +29), I got lots of rubbing on the arch liner with only a 235 40 tyre with a decent amount of camber.

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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by BTZ461 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:20 am

///MBan wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:46 am
BTZ461 wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:58 am None really, answering your question.
We run Apex wheels, either in the EC7 or ARC8 style. Max 18" (19" seems too large in diameter, especially on the eye.)
Perfect for all our requirements, we have not bothered messing about with coil over suspension systems. Seems to work well on the E46 M3, and the two E86's.
And suit our wallets too. Its a question of compromise, the Z4M runs 9 inch ET42 to the front and spaced at 15mm with extended bolts. 10 inch rear ET25. The E86 3,0 si runs 18x8,5 and 9,5 ET35 from memory and spacers at 15mm. Both cars running Koni shocks, so adjustable.
But hey ho, folks have differing opinions and that makes life interesting :)
Exactly - what I'm after is not going to be for everyone (or anyone), but I thought I'd ask. :)

How do you run a 9 inch on the front of your Z4M with an effective offset of +27? Skinny tyres? Lots of camber? Rolled arch? Removed arch liner? When I tried an 8.5inch with an effective offset of +23 (equivalent to a 9 inch +29), I got lots of rubbing on the arch liner with only a 235 40 tyre with a decent amount of camber.
Perfect fitment on the front. 235/45 Michelin PS4 to the front, 265/40 to the rear. None of what you suggest (rolled arches etc etc.) Camber is whatever standard spec is. Arch liners etc all perfect.
Hope this helps you ///MBan.

///MBan
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M and non-M: custom offset die forged wheels

Post by ///MBan » Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:22 am

BTZ461 wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:20 am Perfect fitment on the front. 235/45 Michelin PS4 to the front, 265/40 to the rear. None of what you suggest (rolled arches etc etc.) Camber is whatever standard spec is. Arch liners etc all perfect.
Hope this helps you ///MBan.
Thanks - that does help. I'm guessing that your car is standard ride height then? I'm only 10mm lower than standard (the highest the KWs go), but maybe that's enough to result in rubbing?

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