The jab ..

[ronk]

Must have Just been media shite!

[Flyingfifer]

Must have Just been media shite!

....... did you check the source I linked? Its NHS England, its their own figures on their own website

[ronk]

Yes - must have been just media shite!
Can’t see why the world has been in crisis - all smoke and mirrors simply sorted if left to statisticians.

It is apparent that something in information transfer isn’t true!

[Vornwend]

Yes - everything was fine and dandy

Umm, not sure if you're understanding the data...
April - June 2019 had a 90.3% occupancy
April - June 2020 had a 62.7% occupancy (DURING COVID)
July - Sept 2019 had a 90.0% occupancy
July - Sept 2020 had a 77.4% occupancy (DURING COVID)
So before covid things were far worse and during covid the hospitals had notably less patients

I don't think that's a fair comparison. These numbers need to be treated with caution and are not like for like. This explainer from the same website......

"Hospital capacity has had to be organised in new ways as a result of the pandemic to treat Covid and non-Covid patients separately and safely in meeting the enhanced Infection Prevention Control measures. This results in beds and staff being deployed differently from in previous years in both emergency and elective settings within the hospital. As a result caution should be exercised in comparing overall occupancy rates between this year and previous years. In general hospitals will experience capacity pressures at lower overall occupancy rates than would previously have been the case"

I don't have any reason not to believe the NHS when they say they are under pressure.

[Flyingfifer]

I don't think that's a fair comparison. These numbers need to be treated with caution and are not like for like. This explainer from the same website......

"Hospital capacity has had to be organised in new ways as a result of the pandemic to treat Covid and non-Covid patients separately and safely in meeting the enhanced Infection Prevention Control measures. This results in beds and staff being deployed differently from in previous years in both emergency and elective settings within the hospital. As a result caution should be exercised in comparing overall occupancy rates between this year and previous years. In general hospitals will experience capacity pressures at lower overall occupancy rates than would previously have been the case"

I don't have any reason not to believe the NHS when they say they are under pressure.

I saw that but given the size of the difference Id argue that's accounted for especially since they dont quantify it at all. I mentioned it before but at no stage were the nightingale hospitals even sparsely populated, London one saw something like 50 people total. That doesnt speak to a "full to bursting" situation

[ronk]

Look at the situation when covid was very high - look at the availability of icu beds along with the availability of staff at the same time.

I’m sure there wasn’t the slack in the system you are suggesting .

They were full to bustin!

[mgrlane]

Look at the situation when covid was very high - look at the availability of icu beds along with the availability of staff at the same time.

I’m sure there wasn’t the slack in the system you are suggesting .

They were full to bustin!

Have you any links or figures for this?

[ronk]

Try a chat with someone in the profession - or someone who needs a joint replacement

[Vornwend]

I don't think that's a fair comparison. These numbers need to be treated with caution and are not like for like. This explainer from the same website......

"Hospital capacity has had to be organised in new ways as a result of the pandemic to treat Covid and non-Covid patients separately and safely in meeting the enhanced Infection Prevention Control measures. This results in beds and staff being deployed differently from in previous years in both emergency and elective settings within the hospital. As a result caution should be exercised in comparing overall occupancy rates between this year and previous years. In general hospitals will experience capacity pressures at lower overall occupancy rates than would previously have been the case"

I don't have any reason not to believe the NHS when they say they are under pressure.

I saw that but given the size of the difference Id argue that's accounted for especially since they dont quantify it at all. I mentioned it before but at no stage were the nightingale hospitals even sparsely populated, London one saw something like 50 people total. That doesnt speak to a "full to bursting" situation

I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that a big difference means they are not being truthful about capacity pressures, unless you have some insight into what effect the Infection prevention control measures referred to have on each individual hospital? If for example you had to drop just 1 bed in 3 that would account for all the difference at a stroke. Capacity is not just about beds though its also about staff some of whom have been redeployed to Covid patients in intensive care.

The trouble with the nightingales is that are not enough staff to man them. They were put in place at a time when the surge in cases was threatening to overwhelm the ICU capacity and the plan was to run down non routine admissions to free up staff. Now the NHS is trying to catch up with the huge non covid back log (any delay to which is also costing lives) so there are no spare staff to just flip across to the nightingales. It takes years to train doctors and nurses.

[Flyingfifer]

I don't think that's a fair comparison. These numbers need to be treated with caution and are not like for like. This explainer from the same website......

"Hospital capacity has had to be organised in new ways as a result of the pandemic to treat Covid and non-Covid patients separately and safely in meeting the enhanced Infection Prevention Control measures. This results in beds and staff being deployed differently from in previous years in both emergency and elective settings within the hospital. As a result caution should be exercised in comparing overall occupancy rates between this year and previous years. In general hospitals will experience capacity pressures at lower overall occupancy rates than would previously have been the case"

I don't have any reason not to believe the NHS when they say they are under pressure.

I saw that but given the size of the difference Id argue that's accounted for especially since they dont quantify it at all. I mentioned it before but at no stage were the nightingale hospitals even sparsely populated, London one saw something like 50 people total. That doesnt speak to a "full to bursting" situation

I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that a big difference means they are not being truthful about capacity pressures, unless you have some insight into what effect the Infection prevention control measures referred to have on each individual hospital? If for example you had to drop just 1 bed in 3 that would account for all the difference at a stroke. Capacity is not just about beds though its also about staff some of whom have been redeployed to Covid patients in intensive care.

The trouble with the nightingales is that are not enough staff to man them. They were put in place at a time when the surge in cases was threatening to overwhelm the ICU capacity and the plan was to run down non routine admissions to free up staff. Now the NHS is trying to catch up with the huge non covid back log (any delay to which is also costing lives) so there are no spare staff to just flip across to the nightingales. It takes years to train doctors and nurses.

We were told that the nightingales were fully staffed and supplied, ready to go at a moments notice

The numbers I cited were for general and acute care given that a whole host of other things were put on hold that would have freed up staff across the board which is probably why the nightingales were "fully staffed" yet they basically saw no patients. That doesn't support the argument that they were full to bursting

[dans6490]

The whole proving you’ve had the jab to enter shop x/y/z, a football stadium, etc etc comes back to what seems like further erosion of the freedoms we once enjoyed in the uk

I will personally be getting the vaccine but I think everyone should have a choice and I don’t think you should have to prove anything, to anyone, at any time.

I watched a video recently, where an elderly, seemingly mentally impaired gentleman, could not articulate his exemption to a security guard and hence his lack of a mask. He was physically removed from the shop. The police were called and backed up the security guard

Now you don’t HAVE to articulate the condition that prevents you wearing a mask. It is your right to privacy. But the rules get misinterpreted and peoples rights violated and backed up by the very people who should be protecting those rights

As I said, I will have the jab but I won’t be justifying wether I have or haven’t, or when, or which variant, to anyone at any point. Not because I have something to hide but because I don’t have to. Plain and simple

If I and my family etc are protected, then what someone else does or doesn’t do is not my concern. I certainly don’t have the right to question their decision, which is the path we are going down

If we start going down the route where you can’t enter a shop without proof of vaccination, then we really will be in a far bigger mess than Covid would ever be.

We’re already in a position where PCSO’s, who have no powers, are stopping innocent people in the street and asking them what they are doing.

I just hope that any Covid legislation that was rushed through is also ripped up in June and not left in place to be used for reasons it wasn’t intended for

[Nictrix]

Its ok. Give it a few weeks and you will be able to buy fake vaccine passports on ebay

[Nanu]

I think Ronk is on the windup with it.

They can't organise track and trace so God knows how they would manage an internal vax passport.

People keep saying that but we have the biggest track & Trace system in the world. The problem is enforcing the self isolation / quarantine.

[Vornwend]

We were told that the nightingales were fully staffed and supplied, ready to go at a moments notice

[/quote]

Maybe they were but only because they were going to redeploy staff from other areas. Remember also that a lot of patients were discharged in an attempt to clear the decks where under more usual circumstances they would have stayed in.

The numbers I cited were for general and acute care given that a whole host of other things were put on hold that would have freed up staff across the board which is probably why the nightingales were "fully staffed" yet they basically saw no patients. That doesn't support the argument that they were full to bursting
[/quote]

Nightingales were a precaution - if the worst case surge had happened then they would have seen patients, fortunately the first lockdown worked.

Right now the numbers in hospital with covid are coming down but still high and comparable with the peak in April. A further difference between then and now is that 40,000 staff are self isolating either with covid or as a precaution against it . This wasn't the case in the early days when testing was not so widespread and has a direct impact on capacity.

[Nanu]

Other countries will dictate whether we will need vaccination passports just like they did with PCR tests. No passport no entry. So those that choose not to be vaccinated then that is their choice which I fully support. They will just have to live with other countries not wanting them. As for the same in this country, private businesses can do what they like. Even now if a shop does not want to grant you access they can refuse entry. They don't even have to justify their reason. The same will hold true for vaccination passports. If a business does not want to do business or engage with you that is their choice, just the same as it's your choice whether to be vaccinated or not.

If you are an employer you have legal obligations under the Health & Safety at Work Act towards your employees and customers.