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BMWZ4MC
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Post by BMWZ4MC » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:21 am

R60BBA wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:15 am
Angelus666 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:20 pm
R60BBA wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:59 pm

No offence Andy but you don’t exactly keep hold of your cars for long and so I see the sense in why you haven’t bothered to do one of these services.

Without getting into it too much, I agree that the issue is slightly overhyped online. However the fact still remains that it is an issue, and if you are looking at long term ownership, you should factor in the cost of replacing them. Just ensure they are done by a qualified M technician, which is ever so more important on the Z4Ms which use the updated M10 stretch bolts which require a labour intensive torquing procedure.
That’s the point, it isn’t a fact, it’s a fact on the earlier e46 cars, but it was rectified on the later versions. The Z4M simply isn’t effected by this so having this done doesn’t really add any value over a car without it. The only process that would justify it would be that you’ve had your oil tested and it’s showing high levels....which would only apply if you’ve driven it very hard on track or haven’t let it warm up properly through its life.
I’m sorry but that’s incorrect and I am genuinely surprised by the misinformation you are sharing.

1. All S54 applications (E46 M3, Z3M, Z4M & Wiesmann) have the potential to suffer bottom end failure.

2. Pre facelift E46 M3’s underwent a recall, however the failure on these cars was due to BMW’s recommendation of 5w30 oil, which was then replaced with 10w60 in 2001. Nevertheless both pre 2003 and post 2003 S54s are failing which illustrates that the issue is not solely specific to pre facelift E46 M3’s.

3. Failure is mainly caused by a) not letting the car warm up properly and b) not changing the oil regularly enough.

4. When buying a car second hand (which applies to most of us on here) only the latter can be checked, there is no way to tell whether previous owners let the car warm up properly before revving to 7,900 rpm.

5. Oil analysis tests can be used as indicators but should not be taken as concrete evidence on engine health.

6. Driving the car hard on track is not an issue if the engine has been warmed up properly (these are M designed engines after all).

7. In terms of value, if a car advertised for sale has done more than 60,000 miles and has not had the service done I would recommend the potential buyer in negotiating a discount on the asking price due to this service. However there is no comeback on cars which have had the service done by reputable M specialists. In other words most of the money spent on undertaking the service can be held in the value of the car if the seller sticks to his guns. Although I accept this can vary per person.

If you don’t want to get yours done that’s fine and totally up to you, however please refrain from spreading misinformation or making ill founded statements.
I couldn’t have put it better myself.
There are several well informed members on this forum who have engineering backgrounds who have advocated changing the bearing shells.
Driving a few thousand miles in cars of moderate mileage without encountering an issue is no more proof that the that the problem does not exist than a lifelong smoker dying of old age is proof that smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer :headbang:
Last edited by BMWZ4MC on Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by R_P_M_ » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:59 am

Fact is it is now a question that is always asked in every sale thread on a car above 90k. So you're gonna lose £1k one way or another.
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Post by mr wilks » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:40 am

R60BBA wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:15 am

6. Driving the car hard on track is not an issue if the engine has been warmed up properly (these are M designed engines after all).

You may well have some substance in many of your points Bob but you let yourself down with no6 mate :wink: of the 7-8 engine fails i can recall documented on forum the past 7 years at least 4 happened during or shortly after tracking
( sixspeed , mmmfive & more recently Ed doe immediately spring to mind ) another i can't remember user name wrote that he ended his track session early due to overheat & then said he would get the engine noise looked at when it went for oil service which was due :roll: ( crazy even thinking of tracking on old oil imo )
There was the guy who caned it to the limiter from cold ( dannytheduck ? ) & mashed his S54 :cry: these engines simply do not get on with excessive heat cycles & low/poor oil & both those things happen from cold & during hard track thrashings .
I suspect over 95% of forum ZM owners will cover less than 2k per yr , decent service records , warmed up procedure followed then out cruising the country lanes rarely seeing the rev counter go over 5k-6k , for these owners the chances of engine failure from top or bottom is rare , the forum itself bears that out otherwise we would see thread after thread reporting major issues .
If i was looking to buy again id be more concerned buying one that hadn't seen track time over one with fresh bottom bearings done but that's just my viewpoint & others may well disagree :wink:
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Post by R60BBA » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:08 am

Andy, if S54s couldn’t hack track usage you wouldn’t see so many at the Nurburgring. :thumbsup:

Don’t get me wrong, track usage increases component wear which is why some of the more keen track guys change their shells every 25,000 miles and race teams change them at the end of every season. But Angelus’ comment about this ‘only applying to cars which have been on track’ is false.

Have to admit, can’t believe DannytheDuck thrashed his car from cold though :? :tumbleweed:
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Post by beanie » Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:43 pm

Track use is hard on cars, there’s no denying that, but it wouldn’t necessarily put me off a well cared for and highly maintained car.

Don’t forget that the 10w60 needs a good bit of heat in it to work properly. There was a comparison table floating about some years ago comparing the various viscosities and their relative protection at certain temperatures. I forget the exact terminology and results but the gist of it was that you’re better off having the 10w60 around 100deg than at 85 (cold weather cruising for example)

In other words, cruising along with the oil at 85deg then occasionally flooring it is potentially more damaging than maintaining a faster pace but with the oil around 100deg. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it your honour!
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Post by Angelus666 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:35 pm

R60BBA wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:08 am Andy, if S54s couldn’t hack track usage you wouldn’t see so many at the Nurburgring. :thumbsup:

Don’t get me wrong, track usage increases component wear which is why some of the more keen track guys change their shells every 25,000 miles and race teams change them at the end of every season. But Angelus’ comment about this ‘only applying to cars which have been on track’ is false.

Have to admit, can’t believe DannytheDuck thrashed his car from cold though :? :tumbleweed:
Not quite what I said, but in case my point was missed. I did book my car in last year for these (when I was doing an Ins II), but the guys who run PMW, a very highly respected M specialist said to me that it was simply not worth changing these on a daily driven car with no adverse elements showing in an oil report. I then checked this with Thorney, who I used to take my CSL to and they said the same thing. Both did say if you were tracking the S54 you might want to change these and a few other components fairly regularly as well. The parts on our S54 are not the same for those on earlier cars, so they really don't need changing on a regular basis like those on the S85 or S65.

I'm certainly no M engineer, so happy to be corrected on this, but a view that all ZM's need to have this done at 60k miles seems wrong information in my mind.

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Post by BMWZ4MC » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:55 pm

Most people suggest changing them before 100k miles, I’ve not seen any posts from knowledgeable members suggesting 60k. I changed mine at 50k because my car spends a lot of time on track and I’ll change them again at 100k.
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Post by MrPT » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:09 am

Based on the rate of bearing surface wear it’s worth just thinking of these as consumables with a very high cost of inspection and a put-the-new-kitchen-on-hold cost of failure.

We know that both cold start conditions and high (but normal) operating loads can cause accelerated wear, but without knowing the whole history of a car it’s difficult to determine what the level of risk is and where it’s come from. The fact that the engines tend to pop during track days doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s where the damage was done.

So effectively, you’re insuring your engine by getting them replaced proactively, and the usual mindset re. insurance, drivetrain warranties or putting money aside should apply. It also provides an opportunity to start a record of oil samples, which does move the ball back into your court a bit re. the risk, but again this won’t be for everyone.

I don’t think it’s possible to be “right” or “wrong” on this unless you’re deliberately negligent. Good discussion, as always, though fellas. :thumbsup:
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Post by bg1 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:23 am

The Ruby Black / Amarone is sold (not to me sadly).

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Post by james28 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:49 am

bg1 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:23 am The Ruby Black / Amarone is sold (not to me sadly).
Sadly or good for someone its appeared back for sale on the same platform just for 2 grand more
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10687453
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10669620

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Post by bg1 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:52 am

james28 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:49 am
bg1 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:23 am The Ruby Black / Amarone is sold (not to me sadly).
Moved from Wiltshire to West Yorkshire
Sadly or good for someone its appeared back for sale on the same platform just for 2 grand more
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10687453
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10669620

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Post by R60BBA » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:27 am

james28 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:49 am
bg1 wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:23 am The Ruby Black / Amarone is sold (not to me sadly).
Sadly or good for someone its appeared back for sale on the same platform just for 2 grand more
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10687453
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10669620
Love how the mileage has been dropped from 90k to 89k :rofl:
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Post by bg1 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:20 pm

Ruby Black / Amarone one now on eBay at £15,995!!!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2007-07-BMW- ... SwK3JfGiMf

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Post by Felix79 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:12 am

I sold my 07 Z4M with 101,740 miles last week. It is someone on here and I got hit hard on the price, but I decided it was best to just let the car go. I let him knock the price down to a pretty low price £7500 in the end, as it's not had rod bearings done and there was the potential headache of the roof being buggered. Sadly there was lots of little things I was unaware about not quite right with the car and due to my back, I can't easily do much on my car. With my last bill being £3400, I knew there was a need to put in about as much again to get it right, but it needed a possible respray (I doubt it, as my old man is a retired detailer who felt with time, the paint could be brought back).

That said, there was a lot of interest and I was offered £8200 in P/X with 2 different garages, regardless of condition, but I was putting it against a car worth £16,000+ .

I did have a good amount of interest and I don't think rod end bearings are a big cause of concern on a roadster, but with so many people treating the Z4M's S54 like a E46's, I was getting asked all the time. I knew I would get knocked down, but I had to weigh up what my car was up against and the fact I wanted to start working on getting Bertie (my puppy) use to being driven by me, without anyone holding him.

Ironically, I've managed to pick up a very well engineered (and obscenely large amount of money spent) E82 135i with 483bhp and 506lbt , as well as other bits done that I wanted to do. It was cheaper than the others I looked at and only has 75,000 on the clock. I went over to this because I am putting my Labrador puppy in the back, as the Z4M seemed too for him to jump in my lap. Thing is, he frigging refuses to get in the car and puts his paws either side of the door when I try to lift him in :headbang: . So my little s**t of a dogs cost me about £6000 in getting a car to take him places, yet he won't go in it lol!

I plan on making a 1M clone, as it's a cheaper route to use genuine 1M parts on a 135i (which is what a 1M is tbh). I hope I am able to get some major things done in the next 12 months.

I will miss my E85 Z4M, but I was never happy being in a roadster and if I had an E86, I think I might have held on to it and just use another car for Bertie.

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Post by mr wilks » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:39 am

Felix79 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:12 am I sold my 07 Z4M with 101,740 miles last week. It is someone on here and I got hit hard on the price, but I decided it was best to just let the car go. I let him knock the price down to a pretty low price £7500 in the end, as it's not had rod bearings done and there was the potential headache of the roof being buggered.
£7500 seems somewhat of a bargain even with a spend required :? these cars are 14yrs old , very few are up for sale / sold requiring zero works & generally speaking most buyers are aware they need a decent budget to keep on top of things .
If you had listed it on ebay at £9950 it would have been gone in days & for close to your ask , the demand for ZMRs is healthy right now .

Who is the lucky buyer , name & shame :oops: :D
Last edited by mr wilks on Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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