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Drove a Z4M again after selling mine in 2018 (impression)

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Post by SiJar » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:25 pm

I drove the Alpine a110S on Tuesday and was impressed with many things except the price, which has no wiggle room not even a single £. The seats and level of comfort was far better than I had imagined being 6ft 3 and the road holding was very impressive. The only issue I foresee is maintenance as it MUST be serviced by an Alpine specialist and those are very thin on the ground. These are currently holding money second hand very well and they are being produced in limited numbers. I just need to test a Cayman now before I can decide on what I purchase to replace my Z4MC!
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Post by Franzino » Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:12 pm

SiJar wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:25 pm I drove the Alpine a110S on Tuesday and was impressed with many things except the price, which has no wiggle room not even a single £. The seats and level of comfort was far better than I had imagined being 6ft 3 and the road holding was very impressive. The only issue I foresee is maintenance as it MUST be serviced by an Alpine specialist and those are very thin on the ground. These are currently holding money second hand very well and they are being produced in limited numbers. I just need to test a Cayman now before I can decide on what I purchase to replace my Z4MC!
Alpine don’t give discounts (like Porsche), in their opinion it devaluates the brand and the product. Personally I think they are right…is a low volume car and the price is the price. That is also why the used Alpine cars keep their value rather wel (in my country at least). I think the A110 is totally worth the asking price. It’s a unique (low weight) car with a chassis and set up developed from zero. It’s not a car that is a further development form an existing car (like the Z4M is from the normal Z4). When comparing price with Porsche… In my country you pay +/- 68.000euro (£58.000) for a fully loaded A110 Légende (sport exhaust, heated seats, big brakes, etc), for an equally equipped (and equally fast) Cayman 2.0 (with leather, PDK, etc) you pay 10.000euro (£8.500) more. So; in this view I think the A110 is excellent value for money (talking about price when bought new of course)

In the UK the situation is different and I understand why UK people think the Alpine is rather expensive. In UK; the price of most sport cars like (Audi RS, BMW M, Porsche GT, etc) are cheaper then in the rest of Europe (the sport car market is massive in the UK and it's tradition from years ago that sportcar prices are lower in the UK). For example; a base 718 GT4 is £76.500 in UK and £86.500 in de rest of Europe. Alpine decided to not change their UK price and keep it as in the rest of EU, this is why the Alpine seems more expensive then some other cars and Alpine sales are also lower in UK then rest of Europe. UK people can get really nice cars way cheaper then us EU folks ;)

By the way; did you consider the new Lotus Emira in your Z4MC replacement list?

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Post by Scubaregs » Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:26 pm

Franzino wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:12 pm Alpine don’t give discounts (like Porsche)
I got £4K discount on a new, unregistered 718 Boxster 3 years ago.
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Post by Franzino » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:11 pm

Scubaregs wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:26 pm
Franzino wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:12 pm Alpine don’t give discounts (like Porsche)
I got £4K discount on a new, unregistered 718 Boxster 3 years ago.
That’s nice...in my country I never heard about discounts with the people I know who bought Porsche (maybe they are not good negotiators 😉 )

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Post by SiJar » Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:09 pm

No I have not really considered a Lotus as a replacement, I think most of them are too low and the sills are very wide making them very awkward to get in and out of. I’ve always wanted a Porsche and feel it’s now or never at my stage of life, however the Alpine A110s is still tempting, but I need to drive the Porsche before I make my mind up!
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Post by RedUn » Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:32 pm

SiJar wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:09 pm No I have not really considered a Lotus as a replacement, I think most of them are too low and the sills are very wide making them very awkward to get in and out of. I’ve always wanted a Porsche and feel it’s now or never at my stage of life, however the Alpine A110s is still tempting, but I need to drive the Porsche before I make my mind up!
What Porsche are you going to drive?

One of the big benefits which you shouldn't overlook is how good the GB Porsche club is, they are very active and if your into doing events and meets etc you can't go wrong.

I like the Alpines, how similar are they to a 4C?
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Post by beanie » Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:14 am

Never really understood the criticism of the seats, certainly not enough to say they are terrible. The Z4m is not a track car and whilst they might lack a bit of bracing in extreme use, I can’t say I’ve ever felt myself sliding around. The only thing I would change/add would be adjustable lumbar support.

There aren’t many production cars with seats that can compare to a full bucket, but considering the Z4s target market and use, I think they’re a fair compromise. Of course, if more support and connection is what you want then buckets are the way to go, but as with the Z4 seats, not all buckets suit all bodies.
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Post by tomscott » Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:31 am

Problem with the Porsche market is its so inflated and even the special stuff in 12 months time is probably going to depreciate. Going to be a lot of unhappy campers, can't continue in this direction.

The Porsche club is awesome tho, so much going on.

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Post by Franzino » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:42 am

SiJar wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:09 pm No I have not really considered a Lotus as a replacement, I think most of them are too low and the sills are very wide making them very awkward to get in and out of. I’ve always wanted a Porsche and feel it’s now or never at my stage of life, however the Alpine A110s is still tempting, but I need to drive the Porsche before I make my mind up!
I was talking about the new Emira; this car is the daily usable Lotus and not comparable with the Elise/Exige. To my eyes not exactly a A110 rival, but it certainly is an awesome alternative for a Porsche Cayman. Me personally I really like Porsche; but only the GT4/3 models do it for me (personal thing).

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Post by Franzino » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:43 am

beanie wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:14 am Never really understood the criticism of the seats, certainly not enough to say they are terrible. The Z4m is not a track car and whilst they might lack a bit of bracing in extreme use, I can’t say I’ve ever felt myself sliding around. The only thing I would change/add would be adjustable lumbar support.

There aren’t many production cars with seats that can compare to a full bucket, but considering the Z4s target market and use, I think they’re a fair compromise. Of course, if more support and connection is what you want then buckets are the way to go, but as with the Z4 seats, not all buckets suit all bodies.
When I mentioned the seats are terrible (and more terrible then I remembered) then it’s not because of the lack of side support (when driving on track). Most standard seats don’t have big side bolsters that hold you in place on track. From all the cars I occasionally drive; the Z4M is the only car where (after driving 5 minutes) I get horrible pain in my lower back and shoulders. For me the support of the lower back and shoulders is the problem on the seats. It could be a personal thing; but for me the Z4M seats are indeed horrible and even worse then I remembered (when I owned one myself).

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Post by Franzino » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:45 am

RedUn wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:32 pm I like the Alpines, how similar are they to a 4C?
They are totally different then the 4C...the A110 drives how the 4C should drive. My Italian buddy even sold his 4C after he testdrove the A110. An Italian guy buying a French car says it all ;)

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Post by beanie » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:51 am

Fair enough, everyone is different and I do agree on the lower back support-I have similar complaints in pole position buckets as well. Nothing a small pillow can’t sort though.

The seats in the alpine look fantastic. It’s a car I’d love to try as it seems perfect for twisty mountain (alpine!) roads
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Post by Franzino » Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:12 pm

tomscott wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:31 am Problem with the Porsche market is its so inflated and even the special stuff in 12 months time is probably going to depreciate. Going to be a lot of unhappy campers, can't continue in this direction.
Every car is going to depreciate....want an investment that gains money instead of losing money. Easy; don't put a lot of money in cars and don't buy a new one (in most cases). For me cars are a hobby and I never looked at the possible depreciation. I always bought rather special/unique cars and the depreciation was already lower then normal cars. Not something I expected or counted on, but of course it's nice if it happens. To be honest; the depreciation worries is mostly an issue for people who change cars very often or maybe buy cars that are a bit above their (real) budget and they really need that money back to get the next car (or next lease). Back in the days; people just bought cars they wanted and could afford without worrying much about resale value. But maybe back then; people were also smarter and did not buy cars they could not really afford?

Me personally if I buy a car it's to own for a very long time and I don't want to worry about future value (this would take away part of the enjoyment for me). I love a GT3! If I would make an effort I could personally buy (lease/finance) a GT3; drive it for two years and then sell it back on (with hopefully a minimal loss). But then I would need to keep an eye on mileage, think about the best resale spec, don't drive on track, hope nothing bad happens (accident can diminish value), etc. The restricted use would take away so much of the enjoyment of the car that I see no point of doing this....but of course I'm no You Tuber and buy cars for my own fun to use as much as I can and not as business model :oops:

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Post by tomscott » Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:02 pm

Franzino wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:12 pm
tomscott wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:31 am Problem with the Porsche market is its so inflated and even the special stuff in 12 months time is probably going to depreciate. Going to be a lot of unhappy campers, can't continue in this direction.
Every car is going to depreciate....want an investment that gains money instead of losing money. Easy; don't put a lot of money in cars and don't buy a new one (in most cases). For me cars are a hobby and I never looked at the possible depreciation. I always bought rather special/unique cars and the depreciation was already lower then normal cars. Not something I expected or counted on, but of course it's nice if it happens. To be honest; the depreciation worries is mostly an issue for people who change cars very often or maybe buy cars that are a bit above their (real) budget and they really need that money back to get the next car (or next lease). Back in the days; people just bought cars they wanted and could afford without worrying much about resale value. But maybe back then; people were also smarter and did not buy cars they could not really afford?

Me personally if I buy a car it's to own for a very long time and I don't want to worry about future value (this would take away part of the enjoyment for me). I love a GT3! If I would make an effort I could personally buy (lease/finance) a GT3; drive it for two years and then sell it back on (with hopefully a minimal loss). But then I would need to keep an eye on mileage, think about the best resale spec, don't drive on track, hope nothing bad happens (accident can diminish value), etc. The restricted use would take away so much of the enjoyment of the car that I see no point of doing this....but of course I'm no You Tuber and buy cars for my own fun to use as much as I can and not as business model :oops:
Not really my point, currently people are paying way over RRP atm because of shortages that's not really a "buy because you love cars" analogy, once supply catches up these cars are going to depreciate really quickly. Like base 992s for example going for 10+K more because there's an 18 month waiting list.

Because people can't buy new cars they are buying older cars to fill the gap and that market has inflated a huge amount too. Mentioned in other threads but my dad has a 2012 991.1 Carrera S with 20k on it, he was going to trade it in against a new Boxster GTS and got offered 56k for it back in November and just WBAC'ed it and they offered 66k for it... 10k in 8 months.

When cars that have just been released are 50-60k over list because people are taking punts and get the allocation, its just ridiculous like the new GT3. Plus the majority of people wouldn't get an allocation be able to buy one because you haven't bought 2 other Porsches this year.

So ye if you could get one new then great, but for the normal person walking in off the street probably not. Its who you are not how much you have unfortunately. Its pretty poor really because the real enthusiasts can't get into the cars as go up for sale instantly with a 50-60k premium off the bat.

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Post by Franzino » Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:18 pm

tomscott wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:02 pm Not really my point, currently people are paying way over RRP atm because of shortages that's not really a "buy because you love cars" analogy, once supply catches up these cars are going to depreciate really quickly. Like base 992s for example going for 10+K more because there's an 18 month waiting list.

Because people can't buy new cars they are buying older cars to fill the gap and that market has inflated a huge amount too. Mentioned in other threads but my dad has a 2012 991.1 Carrera S with 20k on it, he was going to trade it in against a new Boxster GTS and got offered 56k for it back in November and just WBAC'ed it and they offered 66k for it... 10k in 8 months.

When cars that have just been released are 50-60k over list because people are taking punts and get the allocation, its just ridiculous like the new GT3. Plus the majority of people wouldn't get an allocation be able to buy one because you haven't bought 2 other Porsches this year.

So ye if you could get one new then great, but for the normal person walking in off the street probably not. Its who you are not how much you have unfortunately. Its pretty poor really because the real enthusiasts can't get into the cars as go up for sale instantly with a 50-60k premium off the bat.
Ok; this is what you mean... Honestly; seems more a RHD UK problem then in our country. I never bought a new Porsche and I can order a new GT3/GT4 tomorrow if I wanted (at normal price and yes I informed already). Same with used 992's; there are some great deals to do on used 992. Paying way over RRP is just stupid and the people their own fault if they want to do this, would personally never do that for any car.

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