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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

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Spaniarduk
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by Spaniarduk » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:41 am

zmaster007, really sorry to hear the bad news. I can only imagine what an unwanted suprise this has been!

If i get any useful conclussion is the fact that a car comes with full service history is not as important or whorthwhile as a car that has proof of the required work and checks being done.

Have you got back to your local BMW dealer to explain how afyer an Insp. 2 the engine failed like that? Im sure that Insp. 2 wasn't cheap and should've picked up of something like what was to come. :(
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by Spaniarduk » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:44 am

Spaniarduk wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:41 am zmaster007, really sorry to hear the bad news. I can only imagine what an unwanted suprise this has been!

If i get any useful conclussion out of your periks is the fact that a car comes with full service history is not as important or whorthwhile as a car that has proof of the required work and checks being done.

Have you got back to your local BMW dealer so they explain how after an Insp. 2 the engine failed like that? Im sure that Insp. 2 wasn't cheap and should've picked up of something like what was to come. :(
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by zmaster007 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:58 am

I have just checked my invoice from BMW. It simply states BMW LL-04 oil. Does the 10w60 come under LL-04 or have they put the wrong oil in my car??
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by ph001 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:41 am

LL-04 is an approval, it isn’t grade specific, but saying that I don’t think any of the LL-04 grades are 10w-60 which was originally what the S54 was specified to use. Either way, I can’t imagine the wrong grade oil being responsible for bearing shell failure. The M isn’t particularly special in that area.
Last edited by ph001 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by TomK » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:44 am

Sure looks like it doesn't it :o
LL-04 seems to usually be 5w 40 or 0w 30.
Definitely take a sample of oil and send it for analysis. Good luck!
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by GuidoK » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:47 am

ph001 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:41 am Either way, I can’t imagine the wrong grade oil being responsible for bearing shell failure. The M isn’t particularly special in that area.
If anything can be responsible for a bearing shell failure (except a design flaw) its the wrong oil weight! :o
The weight of the oil in combination with the climate profile determines the oil film inside the bearing clearance. Thats how oil works.
And the bearing clearance (and bearing size) on the s54 is different than say on a m54 engine, and it can also run on a different temperature. (oil pressure is the same). These are all parameters specific for an engine and contribute in the choice of oil weight.

I would for sure get an experts opinion/test on what grade oil is used if there is no info on the invoice/service record.

BMW specifically requires 10w60 for the s54, and NOT LL04 per sé (that is, LL04 is not required).
See TIS:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e85- ... ne/1PSryV8
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e85- ... 1VnZCGJeB7
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by zmaster007 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:26 am

GuidoK & TomK - thought so. Just talked to Millers - their analysis will confirm the grade. Stay tuned!
Edit: old invoices also say LL-04. Not holding out too much hope
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by ga41 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:30 am

I think i was the first one on the forum with spun bearings back in 2013. It cost me here in Cyprus about 5-6k sterling for a rebuild... brought in a used M3 crankshaft, used rods and new bearings, gaskets, bolts etc etc..

I feel your pain and hope it gets sorted soon whichever direction you decide to go to..
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by mmm-five » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:30 am

zmaster007 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:26 am GuidoK & TomK - thought so. Just talked to Millers - their analysis will confirm the grade. Stay tuned!
Edit: old invoices also say LL-04. Not holding out too much hope
To be fair, all my old dealer services state LL04 on the invoice, but after I saw that the first time they claimed that they just used the same ‘oil’ code on the computer system no matter what went into the car, and the job sheet would show the actual oil used.

If they can’t show/prove this to be the case, then I’d be pursuing the dealer for repair contribution.

I was also told valve clearances were recorded every time too...yet they could never provide a copy of them when I asked.

I do know that all my interim services used Castrol Edge/TWS, as that’s what my mechanic and I also use in our e34 M5s.
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by ph001 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:39 am

GuidoK - I totally get what you are saying, but there is also lots of evidence of bearing shell failure around where people definitely have used the correct grade oil. That's not to say that using the wrong grade oil is not a contributing factor perhaps but my instinct would say the quality of the base stock is more influential. You only have to look at the race guys or people like ECS tuning that routinely recommend using a different grade in the S54 depending on climatic conditions:


S54 oil.jpg
S54 oil.jpg (97.83 KiB) Viewed 1287 times


...ECS tuning own website promotes various grades for the S54 which I would think would be giving them problems with lots of angry customers if engines were blowing up within 2 weeks as a consequence... https://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E46-M3-S5 ... ngine/Oil/

This may all be by the by if the OP can get a case together inferring that by using LL-04 at least casts some doubt as to the longetivity of the engine. Lets face it, LL-04 used to be some crappy Long Life diesel oil back in the day. That seems to have changed somewhat in modern times.

Don't get me wrong, I would never risk anything else in my M than the originally specified Castrol TWS (Edge) 10W-60. I just think proving LL-04 oil was the fundamental reason for bearing shell failure could be arduous if BMW wanted to defend their position aggressively.
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by Attilio » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:45 am

zmaster007 & mmm-five,

really sorry to hear about your troubles! :cry:

reading about it sent a shiver down my spine and makes me think one would be better off doing the big end shells at about 60K miles as a preventative measure. :(

zmaster007, keep us posted and best of luck with the investigation!
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by Jembo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:00 pm

I was planning on replacing the shells at around 80k (that’s likely to be in 15 years time the way I’m going) where it’s had quite a few extra oil services in its lifetime - now I see a recommendation @ 50k

Interested to hear other peoples thoughts
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by MrPT » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:13 pm

Very sorry mmm-five and OP. Fair to say that bad luck is the only, known common denominator for premature bearing shell failure on these engines!
Jembo wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:00 pm I was planning on replacing the shells at around 80k (that’s likely to be in 15 years time the way I’m going) where it’s had quite a few extra oil services in its lifetime - now I see a recommendation @ 50k

Interested to hear other peoples thoughts
Personally, I would be thinking 50-60k unless I knew how the car had been treated every day of its life. Mine were replaced at 45k based on condition (part of a failure that was ultimately attributed to worn cam followers) and they were by no means terrible.

You'll find examples of spun shells at <30k (less so with latter S54s, admittedly) and pics of very healthy looking shells (no visible copper) at >60k, but I would say that, on balance, 50k seems like a sensible refresh point. You'd be buying yourself another ~50k miles of relative peace of mind (which may mean faster/cheaper diagnosis of other potential issues as the bottom end won't be dropped pre-emptively), insurance against £5k+ of peripheral damage in the case of a spun shell an ability to sell to the enthusiast community with more confidence.
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by ph001 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:15 pm

It's a toughie. There are countless examples of the S54 engines going to >150k miles on the original shells. I'm not sure anybody has really pinned the problem down sufficiently enough to say if it was a manufacturing defect / batch problem or oil / service related. Perhaps it's down to number of cold starts or maybe the number of short drives where the car runs rich and additional petroleum vapour gets into the oil and changes the viscosity substantially.

Incidently Mr Vanos wrote an interesting piece on bearing shell failures (albeit on the V8 M):

https://www.facebook.com/MrVanos/posts/925018294267445

"After some questions around the S85 V10 and S65 V8 engines that seem to suffering more and more bearing failure, I've wrote a little bit of information with our take on it. This is purely our view and how we see it. We don't expect people to follow this and everyone has their own opinion.

Bearings were changed mainly due to new laws regarding copper. Now aluminium with tin coating. Some people say copper is better due to it being softer and can take oil contamination better. There isn't much oil debris these days due to clean engines and very good filtration.

Bearing shells produced in steel and lined with aluminum/tin or aluminum/tin/silicon have extremely effective anti-friction properties combined with high wear strength and exceptional resistance to corrosion. The fairly soft tin provides good conformability of the bearing to the crankshaft and is an excellent surface for embedment of dirt particles occurring as wear debris and primary dirt in the engine oil. Silicon, as an alloying element in aluminum bearings, is necessary when using cast iron crankshafts, especially “soft” shafts. The silicon smoothes the crankshaft surface to overcome any folded and smeared metal that might be covering up carbon inclusion.

Tin bearings work like Alusil blocks in that they need to have the silicone content brought out to bed in the piston rings. Same thing with the cranks, they bed in with the cranks, which copper based bearings will never do. This is good for bearing replacement as it will clean up the crank if there is any 'damage/light marking' from the original bearings contacting the crank. If a bearing has spun then it's to late and a new crank is the only option. The cranks are far to soft and a lot of material is taken off them when a bearing spins. There is no one in the uk who will warranty any repair work, ie. weld crank and regrind. I believe it can be done in the US, but i wouldn't want to warranty an engine with this done.

That being said the original bearings aren't the issue, never have been. The clearance is too tight for the oil thickness. It's that simple, 10w60 should never have been put in the engine, full stop. Nothing to do with temps either as the F10 uses 0w30/40 with 2 turbos and way higher engine temps that the S65/85 without issue, and bigger clearances on the rods. The thinner oil flows faster when cold, so the engine warms up quicker, and flows faster generally so the engine temps are slightly lower due to increase heat dissipation due to faster flow. Also, the original rod bolts are also 100% fine with no known issues, yes ARP's are stronger, but for normal use they don't fail and I've never heard off one failing. A supercharged E92 M3 or V10 would be a good idea to use ARP with the extra stress created but again it's not essential. A couple of supercharged M3s we built are running standard internals for the last 6 years now and one has covered 50k miles, no issue at all and perfect oil when it's changed. Uses Motul 300v 5w40 changed every 4K miles, has been tracked hard as well.

Common misconception is the thicker oil is better for higher temps, mobil 1 0w40 is rated to 150 degrees. If your engine sees oil temps that high the oil is the least of its worries . The safety cutoff is 125 on S65/S85. Above that it goes into limp mode. Some supercharged M3's have issues with high oil temps on track.

The 10w60 oil is like treacle when it's cold, combine this with not warming engine properly, 19000 mile oil changes, when the Castrol oil has been proven to break down after 5-7k miles and it's never going to end well.

However, an engine that's had regular oil (5-6k miles) changes, warmed up properly will be fine for big miles.

I've done a couple of rod bearing jobs on high mileage, 'over' maintained cars and they have been as new. My last V10 had 80k on it and 11 oil changes in the book. They were like new when I changed them.

Had to rebuild several very low mileage engines, less than 30k and only 2/3/4 oil changes in 10 years and engines are wrecked.

My recommendation is 5w40 race oil, Motul 300v, change every 5-6k mile and not worry about it. Use BMW bearings when changing, they are the only bearings on sale with a 2 year parts failure warranty.

All our rebuilds have to use 5w40 Motul as the oil for warranty. My own cars run Motul 300v as do all race bikes."
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Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by Jembo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:51 pm

There’s another grand I’m going to have to hide from the misses...
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