Rod bearing failure - what to do?

"M" Specific discussion
Post Reply
zmaster007
Member
Member
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:36 am

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by zmaster007 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:55 pm

Hi guys,

Been a bit quiet from me on here lately as I've been enjoying trouble free miles until now. Suddenly got a knock while driving the other day with no funny noises before hand. Recovered the car to CPC, who are saying it is rod bearings after seeing sparkly oil in the filter housing. They reckon £5-8k to fix.

For note - the car has always been serviced by the book (by BMW), and treated gently in my ownership - for the last 60k (under 2500rpm until 75 degrees, never tracked). Car is currently on 91k - had its inspection 2 two weeks ago.

Not sure what to do next to be honest - pretty gutted. :cry:
Sell as is?
Part out?
Get it fixed?
Image

User avatar
Jembo
Lifer
Lifer
Posts: 4815
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:59 pm
Location: Kent

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by Jembo » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:17 pm

Question, would you still get another //M Coupe or vert?

If yes, better the devil you know though I’d ask for a second opinion over costs, as these aren’t cheap to repair.

Where in the country are you - there’s a list of trusted garages / indy’s circulating on here so maybe give one of them a call.

Good luck
The dark side with a ///M Hell Bronze Sepang Coupe :happyclap:
Ex Aug 2005 Maldives Blue 3 litre cruizer, lots of toyz,

Lifer 54
Image

User avatar
Yorkie Z
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 2557
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:19 pm
Location: Plymouth

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by Yorkie Z » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:22 pm

I feel your pain :(

I’d really be questioning the service you’ve just had, I’d be tempted to get an oil sample tested to see what oil it has in it. I’m sure other people have had the same happen and the repair cost has been a lot less. Hopefully the guys on here should be able to point you in the right direction.

The other option is to delete this post and go and have a “car accident” write the car off :wink:
But that’s probably not a great idea :!:
A Dirty M///

mmm-five
Lifer
Lifer
Posts: 10671
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:03 pm
Location: South Liverpool
Contact:

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by mmm-five » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:40 pm

What are they saying is needed for that £5k-£8k?

I'm guessing it's a full strip & rebuild?

Can they not check the oil further up the chain (from around VANOS or cams) to see if there's any particles there. If there isn't, you may get away with a flush & bearings.

I'm not sure any garage routinely checks the oil/filter for metal particles during an oil service or inspection though (although it would be easy to cut the filter open to check).
Trigger’s Z4MC
Some bits now over 163,000 miles, some less than 1,000 miles.
Individual Ruby Black, Individual extended champagne leather, plus many options

Image

zmaster007
Member
Member
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:36 am

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by zmaster007 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:46 pm

mmm-five wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:40 pm
What are they saying is needed for that £5k-£8k?

I'm guessing it's a full strip & rebuild?

Can they not check the oil further up the chain (from around VANOS or cams) to see if there's any particles there. If there isn't, you may get away with a flush & bearings.
Strip/rebuild +/- rods, +/- crank, + oil cooler. I sent it to CPC as they are widely recommended for M car work - I thought they would be the most trustworthy place to go.
Image

Online
Davidcliff
Member
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 9:03 pm

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by Davidcliff » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:58 pm

When I read of Rod bearing failures , does it mean the small ends or big ends ?
I think you could do big ends with sump off the bearings will cost £100 and a good flush and say three oil changes another £200, gaskets and sealant £50 . Its quite a bit of work I have done it before albeit with the engine out .

Do they mean big ends , (shells) or small ends around the gudgeon pin( needle sleeve type in the piston ?
I cant see you could diagnose without a strip down and in terms of crank grinding or re profile , you could only see when you had the sump off .
I have done a couple on big Yank engines and got away with shells, it is highly unusual for the small ends to fail

David
2011 E89 3.0 M Sport Manual S Drive

User avatar
srhutch
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 25418
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:22 pm
Location: East Sussex, UK
Contact:

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by srhutch » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:19 pm

Davidcliff wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:58 pm
When I read of Rod bearing failures , does it mean the small ends or big ends ?
I think you could do big ends with sump off the bearings will cost £100 and a good flush and say three oil changes another £200, gaskets and sealant £50 . Its quite a bit of work I have done it before albeit with the engine out .

Do they mean big ends , (shells) or small ends around the gudgeon pin( needle sleeve type in the piston ?
I cant see you could diagnose without a strip down and in terms of crank grinding or re profile , you could only see when you had the sump off .
I have done a couple on big Yank engines and got away with shells, it is highly unusual for the small ends to fail

David
They mean big ends.

Price to me sounds like worse case scenario if crank and rods are required.
Image

Z4M-2006
Lifer
Lifer
Posts: 6571
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:53 am
Location: High Peak,Derbyshire.

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by Z4M-2006 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:21 pm

Its not an unheard of failure and BMW say they are a "service item" on the S54... Even though you will never find a replacement time or mileage.

Some can get away with shells and a flush,but it sounds like it needs a crank too.

This is where all the money is,it may be financially viable to get a second hand S54 and put in new shells and go in that direction.

User avatar
TomK
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:50 pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by TomK » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:07 pm

Sorry to hear op. 2nd hand engine probably a cheaper option but of course there's always an unknown with them.
My friend's m3 just had a similar issue, infact it managed to crack a shell in 3 places. 3 new rods, oil pump, reground crank, full clean later he was about 5k in at non London labour prices. It's expensive when they go wrong like that :(
MC IB, CSL box, Schrick 288/280 cams, SS race bbox, APs, RS-29s, Apex ARC-8, AD08R, KW ClubSport, Turner arms & RTAB limiters, Vibratec mounts, Rogue pulleys & RSMs, Sparco carbon w/ 6 point, CDV delete, UUC ssk, M5 knob, oe strutbrace

Online
Davidcliff
Member
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 9:03 pm

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by Davidcliff » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:20 pm

You can buy a kit or send away an oil sample and the simplest measure is copper parts per million, see if they have actually gone . Given it big ends the price £5-8 is quite wide , I would have thought you could totally rebuild one of these engines for £5k . I just rebuilt old TVR Speed 6 engine, with my son, with all new parts , all made of chocolate metal from India originally , for about £3500 in parts . I did not replace the block . Appreciate that its not everyone's desire to get dirty or perhaps your thing, but I would get a second opinion. Does make me wonder about BMW long-life oil and service intervals . Also did you say just serviced , with oil change , does that get the alarm bells ringing .
2011 E89 3.0 M Sport Manual S Drive

User avatar
GuidoK
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 2719
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:37 am

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by GuidoK » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:25 pm

Have the oil check on the right weight, although I can't imagine that they fucked up if it was done at bmw and that its just a coincidence that it took place so soon after a service.
The advice from independant s54 specialists to change rodbearings at 50k miles isn't a hoax. Never cheap out on that, as per mile it's just a penny or so.

This is stuff of nightmares, especially if you have to pay someone to do the work too (as its a lot of work)
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | fully polybushed | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers | Sachs Race Engineering clutch

mmm-five
Lifer
Lifer
Posts: 10671
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:03 pm
Location: South Liverpool
Contact:

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by mmm-five » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:32 pm

Z4M-2006 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:21 pm
This is where all the money is,it may be financially viable to get a second hand S54 and put in new shells and go in that direction.
I’m in the same position, but hadn’t mentioned it previously until I’d decided what I was going to do (strip & rebuild with new parts, or scrap the car, or wait for a low mileage S54).

It was driving normally, and we stopped to refuel, but sounde a bit noisy as I went to move off. Stopped and revved it slowly to about 1500rpm, and heard the bottom end knocking, so turned it off straight away & got it trailered to a specialist. They got me to start it and rev it slowly again and told me to turn it off immediately.

We took the oil filter out and could see a fair bit of metal, and to see if the filter had caught it all or if any had gone further into the engine we cut the filter apart...only to find as much inside as out. We then took the valve cover off and we could see ‘glitter’ :thumbsdown:

The difference I suppose to your’s is that mine is on 163,000 miles and has done a fair few track days and Ring trips...BUT it has been well over-serviced - some times 3 oil & filter changes in a month.

Murphy’s Law is that I had mine booked in for shells, vanos & CSL style carbon airbox & alpha-n during winter, to be ready for spring.

————————

Once we decided what to do (whilst I was in bed recovering from a fractured hip I injured skiing) I found it quite difficult to get a good Z4M S54 engine...they were either around 100,000 miles - and probably in need of shells & vanos too, or they were out of a crashed car and couldn’t be seen running. I finally got one after 3 months of looking and almost settling for an M3 S54.

Ultimately I only paid 10% more for Z4M version over an M3 version, but it makes the engine swap easier, as the Z4M S54 is slightly different to an M3 S54.

If you get an M3 version, then check that an earlier ones have the recall done on the bearings. You'll also need the loom to connect to the MSS70 ECU in the Z4 (M3 has MSS54).

Manifolds, MAF, airbox, dipstick, sump, etc will all need to be changed over from the Z4 engine to the M3 engine - but if there’s a lot of contamination you’d want to be raplacing bits instead to avoid leaving crap everywhere.

What you’ll save on an M3 engine, you might spend on replacement parts and extra labour to swap everything.
Trigger’s Z4MC
Some bits now over 163,000 miles, some less than 1,000 miles.
Individual Ruby Black, Individual extended champagne leather, plus many options

Image

User avatar
-Tom-
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 2698
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:03 pm
Location: Bath

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by -Tom- » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:40 pm

:o :o this all makes for a shite read. :thumbsdown:
-Z4 M Coupe, Silver Grey, Imola Red Nappa, carbon leather, CSLs, Track Mode Enabled
-Mini Cooper S Clubman

Previous - 3.0 si sport roadster, Silver Grey with Oregon Pearl Grey leather, Piano black, EIbach Pro, Stubby

User avatar
mr wilks
Lifer
Lifer
Posts: 19005
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:02 pm
Location: Lancs or Normandy , i don't mind which

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by mr wilks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:40 pm

Jaheeeez mmm5 , more gloomy news after all your previous issues :cry: if you crack on with it then surely THE triggers broom of ZMCs :D
Z history
E86
E85
Grey///MR
Si E85
E89 23i
Si E85
E86
3.0Si E85
Imola///MR
35i Msport 6spd
E86
Ti ///MR

E86


Image





https://www.instagram.com/andybmwheels/

mmm-five
Lifer
Lifer
Posts: 10671
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:03 pm
Location: South Liverpool
Contact:

Rod bearing failure - what to do?

Post by mmm-five » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:49 pm

mr wilks wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:40 pm
Jaheeeez mmm5 , more gloomy news after all your previous issues :cry: if you crack on with it then surely THE triggers broom of ZMCs :D
I'm using man-maths to lessen the pain (zmaster007 can't unfortunately), as I would have spent about £5k getting all the winter work done anyway - and would still have had a 163,000 mile car.

I'm hoping his engine just needs the bearings & possibly a crank regrind - and will be fine after a good flush of the system - rather than a complete strip & rebuild.

If I'm lucky (unlikely) the ECU from the 43,000 mile donor engine will reset my odometer to 43,000 miles too - which will still probably be older than most of the other parts I've replaced :P

At least it should be good for another 100,000 miles then :thumbsup:
Trigger’s Z4MC
Some bits now over 163,000 miles, some less than 1,000 miles.
Individual Ruby Black, Individual extended champagne leather, plus many options

Image

Post Reply