Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

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T1berious
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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by T1berious » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:46 pm

Spaniarduk wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:57 pm
Oh wow! This thread was a like a bad Hitchcock movie! I loved it!! :rofl: i simply could not put my phone down from post 1 to this point. Really, really useful and interesting thread! Albeit at great cost and possibly a few sleepless nights for T1berious, . I only got my Z4MR imola red 13 months ago with 24k and from day one I've tried to learn as much as possible about the S54. This thread is a treasure! Thanks to everyone who contributed.
T1berious, that video made my eyes water and made me reach for my wallet for a few small pats! :rofl:
I think you'll be safe if you keep servicing it regularly, mines will get oil and filter twice a year moving forward.
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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by mad4slalom » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:03 pm

There is a scew in valve up under the head on the s54 and the earlier s50 m engines that maintains oil pressure to prevent top end drive train wear on cold starts. I have replaced mine as a precaution on both my last and current m’s . If that has failed it could have caused camshaft lobe or follower wear . Only about 15 quid so worth doing imo. Hope your problem turns out to be not too serious. Is noise intermittant or continuous ?

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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by Mangozac » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:47 pm

mad4slalom wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:03 pm
There is a scew in valve up under the head on the s54 and the earlier s50 m engines that maintains oil pressure to prevent top end drive train wear on cold starts. I have replaced mine as a precaution on both my last and current m’s . If that has failed it could have caused camshaft lobe or follower wear . Only about 15 quid so worth doing imo. Hope your problem turns out to be not too serious. Is noise intermittant or continuous ?
The constant pressure valve, on the side of the block near the rear? I've never heard any suggestions that it ever contributed to any actual engine failures. They generally get replaced periodically because they simply start to leak oil, but that can be sorted instead but simply replacing the O-ring.
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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by Z4M-2006 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:35 pm

The CPV shpould be changed out periodically...

Like has been said,its job is to hold oil in the gallery so the cams and vanos dont go short of oil on initial start up.Its cheap and not a bad job to change,so worth doing.

The physics of its operation make sense,and you could see that by the valve getting gummed up or failing that in the long term it could do damage.

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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by Mangozac » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:51 pm

Z4M-2006 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:35 pm
The CPV shpould be changed out periodically...

Like has been said,its job is to hold oil in the gallery so the cams and vanos dont go short of oil on initial start up.Its cheap and not a bad job to change,so worth doing.

The physics of its operation make sense,and you could see that by the valve getting gummed up or failing that in the long term it could do damage.
I disagree about it not being a bad job - it's a bitch to get at!

I do agree that a failure of the CPV could theoretically cause issues, but I'm more interested as to whether there are documented cases, otherwise we could go crazy replacing every single part on the engine could theoretically cause issues! Inspection to ensure that it is clean could suffice.
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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by Z4M-2006 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:30 pm

Its easy enough from underneath with the correct tools...10 minute job.

I fail to see how you "could" make any documented case of this valve causing an issue. We do know that cams and followers do get damaged,whats the "documented" cause for these failures ?

If you have removed the valve,you will basically see that its a ball bearing with a spring in an encasement. Cleaning and makeing sure the ball lifts off its seat is fine,i wouldnt know how to determine if the spring was weak or faulty though.

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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by mad4slalom » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:19 am

ph001 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:26 pm
Way back when I used to read Performance Bikes there was an interesting article on running in of new engines. They basically took a couple of brand new Yammy R1's - the first they broke in gently as per recommendation and the other they ripped the arse off right from the word go. Following a month of that and the usual oil change, both bikes were tracked relentlessly for a season on exactly the same service schedule before been sent for a dyno run and a full strip down inspection - right down to the last nut and bolt. Result.... absolutely identical. Both bikes showed minimal wear and had power outputs within a couple of percent.

There's no reason to take a risk by not running in I suppose, but real world experiments have proved that the risk of engine damage by not running in are very small indeed.
T1berious wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:28 am
Update:

They had the cam covers off and I asked them to check the valve clearances while they were at it.
As I understand it (as stated by others) the oil pump was replaced rather than risk it causing another issue, totally got my vote.

Yes indeed, it was bottom end. I believe the crank was not damaged enough to warrant replacement but as someone who know next to nothing about the inner workings of the S54 Engine I'll have to trust the guy who's working on it :)

(Plus wouldn't they want to replace the crank if it was damaged?)

Plus I'm no where near the Garage so again I can't really pop in and want to see damaged parts and setup a web cam of the work being done (wouldn't that be cool?)

But I will ask about the crank today.

Cheers for all the input guys, the good news is (as I understand it) after this work she'll be good for another 100k! SWMBO is still wanting put the nails in though.....

T1b
Funny that as i was reading a feature on running newly built engines and the author was extolling the virtues of bedding the rings with bursts of hard acceleration and showiny how this produce even wear on the bores and much more gas tight sealing from the rings, against an engine that was over protected with gentle no revs running in was actually worse off for it , having uneven bore wear and less seal on the compression rings 🤔

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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by Beedub » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:10 am

Z4M-2006 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:35 pm
The CPV shpould be changed out periodically...

Like has been said,its job is to hold oil in the gallery so the cams and vanos dont go short of oil on initial start up.Its cheap and not a bad job to change,so worth doing.

The physics of its operation make sense,and you could see that by the valve getting gummed up or failing that in the long term it could do damage.
good to know, what interval do you recommend? and do you mean actually replace the physical Valve as well as the seal...??
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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by Mangozac » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:00 pm

Z4M-2006 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:30 pm
Its easy enough from underneath with the correct tools...10 minute job.

I fail to see how you "could" make any documented case of this valve causing an issue. We do know that cams and followers do get damaged,whats the "documented" cause for these failures ?

If you have removed the valve,you will basically see that its a ball bearing with a spring in an encasement. Cleaning and makeing sure the ball lifts off its seat is fine,i wouldnt know how to determine if the spring was weak or faulty though.
I did mine on a lift with the right tools and hated every contorted second of it!

It wouldn't be impossible to document, just not likely. If a cam/follower failure occurred it wouldn't be difficult to remove the CPV and test the spring tension, but I admit this is beyond the scope of most technicians.

Honestly I doubt cleaning would be necessary. Inspection probably wouldn't hurt, but it's not a particularly expensive part so at that point you might as well just replace it if it's a part that worries you :thumbsup:

I'm going to talk to a mechanical engineer I've been working with and some of my BMW technician mates to see if I can get some more concrete info.
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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by Z4M-2006 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:32 pm

Would be interesting to see what they have to say..I always use a ratchet with a driver head,you can then wedge against the manifold and it gives great purchase.. I probably changed 20,maybe more and never really struggled..


Beedub...I have changed mine on every S50 and S54 i have had. Think they had all done 50k+ miles though.. Maybe at 60k may be a long enough period of time.
Again its cheap,so why not. Like the Vanos filter,there is no designated time/distance interval but its a prudent thing to get done.

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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by tjlazer » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:30 am

mad4slalom wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:19 am
ph001 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:26 pm
Way back when I used to read Performance Bikes there was an interesting article on running in of new engines. They basically took a couple of brand new Yammy R1's - the first they broke in gently as per recommendation and the other they ripped the arse off right from the word go. Following a month of that and the usual oil change, both bikes were tracked relentlessly for a season on exactly the same service schedule before been sent for a dyno run and a full strip down inspection - right down to the last nut and bolt. Result.... absolutely identical. Both bikes showed minimal wear and had power outputs within a couple of percent.

There's no reason to take a risk by not running in I suppose, but real world experiments have proved that the risk of engine damage by not running in are very small indeed.
T1berious wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:28 am
Update:

They had the cam covers off and I asked them to check the valve clearances while they were at it.
As I understand it (as stated by others) the oil pump was replaced rather than risk it causing another issue, totally got my vote.

Yes indeed, it was bottom end. I believe the crank was not damaged enough to warrant replacement but as someone who know next to nothing about the inner workings of the S54 Engine I'll have to trust the guy who's working on it :)

(Plus wouldn't they want to replace the crank if it was damaged?)

Plus I'm no where near the Garage so again I can't really pop in and want to see damaged parts and setup a web cam of the work being done (wouldn't that be cool?)

But I will ask about the crank today.

Cheers for all the input guys, the good news is (as I understand it) after this work she'll be good for another 100k! SWMBO is still wanting put the nails in though.....

T1b
Funny that as i was reading a feature on running newly built engines and the author was extolling the virtues of bedding the rings with bursts of hard acceleration and showiny how this produce even wear on the bores and much more gas tight sealing from the rings, against an engine that was over protected with gentle no revs running in was actually worse off for it , having uneven bore wear and less seal on the compression rings 🤔
I took this philosophy with my street triple, same with my golf R and even the wife's Skoda. None ever used any oil between services and run great. I'm a believer in the hard run in. You have to get the engine warm and keep the bursts short. You could say it's a gamble and others will argue against it but I think the gentle break in is just to protect against abuse rather than a considerate but harder approach. Didn't get this luxury with my s54 but fortunately she doesn't burn oil either. Ultimately it's your car, your choice.
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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by Lower » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:48 am

tjlazer wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:30 am
mad4slalom wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:19 am
ph001 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:26 pm
Way back when I used to read Performance Bikes there was an interesting article on running in of new engines. They basically took a couple of brand new Yammy R1's - the first they broke in gently as per recommendation and the other they ripped the arse off right from the word go. Following a month of that and the usual oil change, both bikes were tracked relentlessly for a season on exactly the same service schedule before been sent for a dyno run and a full strip down inspection - right down to the last nut and bolt. Result.... absolutely identical. Both bikes showed minimal wear and had power outputs within a couple of percent.

There's no reason to take a risk by not running in I suppose, but real world experiments have proved that the risk of engine damage by not running in are very small indeed.
T1berious wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:28 am
Update:

They had the cam covers off and I asked them to check the valve clearances while they were at it.
As I understand it (as stated by others) the oil pump was replaced rather than risk it causing another issue, totally got my vote.

Yes indeed, it was bottom end. I believe the crank was not damaged enough to warrant replacement but as someone who know next to nothing about the inner workings of the S54 Engine I'll have to trust the guy who's working on it :)

(Plus wouldn't they want to replace the crank if it was damaged?)

Plus I'm no where near the Garage so again I can't really pop in and want to see damaged parts and setup a web cam of the work being done (wouldn't that be cool?)

But I will ask about the crank today.

Cheers for all the input guys, the good news is (as I understand it) after this work she'll be good for another 100k! SWMBO is still wanting put the nails in though.....

T1b
Funny that as i was reading a feature on running newly built engines and the author was extolling the virtues of bedding the rings with bursts of hard acceleration and showiny how this produce even wear on the bores and much more gas tight sealing from the rings, against an engine that was over protected with gentle no revs running in was actually worse off for it , having uneven bore wear and less seal on the compression rings 🤔
I took this philosophy with my street triple, same with my golf R and even the wife's Skoda. None ever used any oil between services and run great. I'm a believer in the hard run in. You have to get the engine warm and keep the bursts short. You could say it's a gamble and others will argue against it but I think the gentle break in is just to protect against abuse rather than a considerate but harder approach. Didn't get this luxury with my s54 but fortunately she doesn't burn oil either. Ultimately it's your car, your choice.
I followed this philosophy with my 2nd S2000. Used full throttle from new and did a trackday at Bedford at 1k miles.

It needed a new engine at 17k miles (under warranty) due to excessive little end wear.
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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by mmm-five » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:05 pm

Mine was run in slowly, incrementally raising the revs, and never letting the car sit at steady revs for too long (as per the instructions I was given by the dealership that put the new engine in).

130,000 miles later it doesn't use a drop of oil between services, hasn't spun its bearings, or thrown anything out of the side of the engine...yet :thumbsup:

It does get warmed up properly (a good 10 miles before I think the engine, gearbox & diff are ready), doesn't get driven unless I can guarantee the trip with enable it to get up to proper temps, and has many more oil services than the book says. It also gets driven as it's meant to once it is up to temp.
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Loud tappet like noises from Engine....

Post by T1berious » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:11 am

UPDATE

I can safely say that she's back to full on rude health! :thumbsup: Took her for a spin, waited till warm (via oil temp reading) and revved her out to 7k no hesitation, no problems just a very rapid deployment up the road.

One very happy S54 owner. Moving forward she'll be getting regular oil changes every 6 months \ 5k which ever arrives sooner.

On another note the 440i impressed me with it's frankly indecent pace, felt warp drive fast. Don't get me wrong the Zed is way more rewarding to drive quickly and it's a very analogue experience compared to the 440.

Hope you all had a very Merry Christmas!

Cheers T1b
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