Has Political correctness gone too far?

[Z4paul]

I am not sure sure what the goal of this thread was, judging by a similar thread on 'statues' the response by the vast majority would be, of course it has. As a new forum member I have been surprised and disappointed by the lack of objectivity, tolerance of others views and willingness to consider that life might be very different for others. We are not all equal, we do not all see things the same way but it really doesn't help to label folk or generalise in the way all can. For many years my experience of racism was a friend being turned away from clubs, pubs etc (not tonight mate was the statement) being pulled over more times than any of us could count by police ( we never were) later in life and employed within the criminal justice system i have seen this in courts ( judge sacked it) as part of a jury myself ( I am not a snowflake or a victim but it shocked me) and in other settings within the system. It has not gone away to the extent that the Army have acknowledged it's presence. I am not sure what the answer is but I do think assumptions either way are lazy and unhelpful- I am not a victim or racist even though I am 53 and white. Stay safe and be kind

[Nictrix]

The post above says a lot about one persons perceptions over time but most of these things have happened to a lot of people no matter what race they are.
I have been knocked back from pubs and clubs before.
In the past I was pulled over by the police more times than I would have liked.
I have been treated badly by the police on more than one occasion.
In the past there was even signs on doors saying that my kind was not welcome in the establishment.

All this was nothing to do with race, it was because I was a biker.

[ronk]

My post was just a simple question!

I wanted the opinions of others to try and understand why an award winning BBC show had been withdrawn or censored.
Other than the “dont mention the war” I couldn’t think why it had got the chop.

[Z4paul]

Yep, acknowledge that and would say Yes, within the context of the TV programmes you mention, like I think statues should remain where they are...inevitably the discussion meandered, as they do, and became, again my view, too polarised. As a later forum member says he has been prejudiced due to his interests (bikes)and perhaps what he wore in the past. I was suggesting that this is still all to evident for other members of society. Cheers.

[buzyg]

Your observations are well founded Paul. It's a private forum, threads will often wonder in polarised directions. You can seldom control that. Like others I contributed to this thread when it kicked off. Once it wondered off topic I choose to leave it be rather than try and straighten things up. Sometimes that is the best course of action. Other times you may feel you need to make a stand, as you have here. I applaud you for your effort on this occasion, though the tread may yet wonder off again. Stick around you clearly have much you can contribute. We may even be discussing cars next time.

[Z4paul]

Your observations are well founded Paul. It's a private forum, threads will often wonder in polarised directions. You can seldom control that. Like others I contributed to this thread when it kicked off. Once it wondered off topic I choose to leave it be rather than try and straighten things up. Sometimes that is the best course of action. Other times you may feel you need to make a stand, as you have here. I applaud you for your effort on this occasion, though the tread may yet wonder off again. Stick around you clearly have much you can contribute. We may even be discussing cars next time.

Thank you for that. I have found this a really helpful and indeed welcoming forum, just today a member replied within minutes and offered his time and knowledge. I will offer what I can and hope to be around for a good while. Thanks again. Paul.

[exdos]

Z4Paul,

I acknowledge that we all have our own opinions and as such views posted on here vary on most subjects. I respect your opinion, as I do of others, who may have different opinions to my own. For me, the discussions of non car-related matters on this forum, make it the best "vox-pop" resource I know on the internet, because we don't all follow any particular "party line" and there seems to be a wide diversity of backgrounds and experiences. We don't even all agree that the Coupe is the best version of the Z4, so what chance is there of agreement on other subjects?

Keep sharing your opinions with us all.

[Flyingfifer]

For many years my experience of racism was a friend being turned away from clubs, pubs etc (not tonight mate was the statement) being pulled over more times than any of us could count by police ( we never were) later in life and employed within the criminal justice system i have seen this in courts ( judge sacked it) as part of a jury myself ( I am not a snowflake or a victim but it shocked me) and in other settings within the system. It has not gone away to the extent that the Army have acknowledged it's presence. I am not sure what the answer is but I do think assumptions either way are lazy and unhelpful- I am not a victim or racist even though I am 53 and white. Stay safe and be kind

Like Nictrix I too was pulled over at least once a week in my younger days and have been turned away from plenty of clubs, the presumption that it could only possibly be because of race and racism is nothing more than victimhood in action and given the rest of your post it seems more like a personal confirmation bias, you believe it to be the case therefore it is.

As for the legal side of things, statistics simply do not bare out what you are claiming, in fact quite the opposite, figures for England and Wales are as follows:
in 2017, the conviction ratios for Black and Mixed ethnic groups were lowest at 78.7% and 79%
in 2017, the conviction ratio was highest for defendants in the White ethnic group, at 85.3%
White people are more likely to be convicted when taken to court.
SOURCE

In terms of questioning the purpose of the thread, this is the lounge area where more general items are discussed, while this may seem blunt it is intended to be genuine advice, if you don't come to the forum for non car related chat or you dont like it.... don't read the non car related chat.
There are people from all walks of life here across the whole spectrum of political, social and cultural perspectives, everyone is welcome to discuss, and debate in a civil way but no one can expect that what they say will be blindly accepted/tolerated or embraced.

[Z4paul]

Surely we are all biased in one way or another, based on what we think we know, our experiences or maybe what we read, who knows. I am happy to acknowledge my own and am also to share a POV, simple as that, as have others. Cheers for now and will be off looking for the rat, or was it a hamster ???

[enuff_zed]

in 2017, the conviction ratios for Black and Mixed ethnic groups were lowest at 78.7% and 79%
in 2017, the conviction ratio was highest for defendants in the White ethnic group, at 85.3%

Playing devil's advocate here:
That could also be used to show that more BAMEs were wrongfully arrested?

You can make statistics prove whatever you want.

[ronk]

I've got a copy of all episodes if you want them.

...although in this case, it's not the German bit that's got it banned, it's the Major's description of Indian vs West Indian cricketers

I must apologise for not replying to your offer - I completely missed it. However I have now bought the full set for £5 so I will be able to hear what was said.

[Flyingfifer]

Playing devil's advocate here:
That could also be used to show that more BAMEs were wrongfully arrested?

You can make statistics prove whatever you want.

While I do appreciate some devils advocacy, in this case its slightly off target, arrest and prosecution aren't the same thing and when you're talking about less than 7% its not exactly a groundbreaking consideration.

When looking at arrest onto prosecution onto conviction the numbers again refute the idea of systemic racism
Arrests: 78% white / 10% black
Prosecutions: 80% white / 10% black
Convictions: 81% white / 10% black
SOURCE

When taken in isolation, yes, stats can be used to prove many things however with proper context and a comprehensive understanding of the statistics and most importantly their methodology its far harder to misrepresent reality.

[MrPT]

Playing devil's advocate here:
That could also be used to show that more BAMEs were wrongfully arrested?

You can make statistics prove whatever you want.

While I do appreciate some devils advocacy, in this case its slightly off target, arrest and prosecution aren't the same thing and when you're talking about less than 7% its not exactly a groundbreaking consideration.

When looking at arrest onto prosecution onto conviction the numbers again refute the idea of systemic racism
Arrests: 78% white / 10% black
Prosecutions: 80% white / 10% black
Convictions: 81% white / 10% black
SOURCE

When taken in isolation, yes, stats can be used to prove many things however with proper context and a comprehensive understanding of the statistics and most importantly their methodology its far harder to misrepresent reality.

Do you not think that a document expressed entirely as ratios, percentages and averages of sums might perhaps be a misrepresentation of reality (deliberate or otherwise)?

So anyways, before Johann Goethe chimed in I was trying to point out that bringing up BLM-related issues in white, middle-class circles (within the same family, even) seems to always stir up a lot of defensiveness and is a conversational dead-end.

Why is this? Do people genuinely think that BLM is about calling middle class white men racists/processed meat? Or is it that the call to action - help us fix the problem, people who might not be affected by it (the so-called "white privilege") - is unjustified?

Because BLM spouts rhetoric like "all white people are racist" not some, or most, literally all, without question are racist. They can fck right off if they expect me to listen to racist opinions like that.

Also, you mention confirmation bias in response to a previous poster, but also hear "all white people are racist" from BLM? Not saying that some people affiliated with the movement don't seem to think that, of course. It's a hot mess.

[Z4paul]

Playing devil's advocate here:
That could also be used to show that more BAMEs were wrongfully arrested?

You can make statistics prove whatever you want.

While I do appreciate some devils advocacy, in this case its slightly off target, arrest and prosecution aren't the same thing and when you're talking about less than 7% its not exactly a groundbreaking consideration.

When looking at arrest onto prosecution onto conviction the numbers again refute the idea of systemic racism
Arrests: 78% white / 10% black
Prosecutions: 80% white / 10% black
Convictions: 81% white / 10% black
SOURCE

When taken in isolation, yes, stats can be used to prove many things however with proper context and a comprehensive understanding of the statistics and most importantly their methodology its far harder to misrepresent reality.

Do you not think that a document expressed entirely as ratios, percentages and averages of sums might perhaps be a misrepresentation of reality (deliberate or otherwise)?

So anyways, before Johann Goethe chimed in I was trying to point out that bringing up BLM-related issues in white, middle-class circles (within the same family, even) seems to always stir up a lot of defensiveness and is a conversational dead-end.

Why is this? Do people genuinely think that BLM is about calling middle class white men racists/processed meat? Or is it that the call to action - help us fix the problem, people who might not be affected by it (the so-called "white privilege") - is unjustified?

Because BLM spouts rhetoric like "all white people are racist" not some, or most, literally all, without question are racist. They can fck right off if they expect me to listen to racist opinions like that.

Also, you mention confirmation bias in response to a previous poster, but also hear "all white people are racist" from BLM? Not saying that some people affiliated with the movement don't seem to think that, of course. It's a hot mess.

I promised myself I would move on from this topic but it is important and stimulating...'hot mess' is about right and I think this reflects the passionate views people have about some issues, the sense of self, ideas of what society could or perhaps should look like. We look at issues like this from a standpoint, a place that we know, we believe in and it is quite possible that this will be biased because much of this bias is unconscious. Bias and schemas are concepts that influence how we see things, our expectations of others and often keep us safe and reassured that we are right, in our view, and others are not. These operate across class, ethnicity, socio economic divides and so on. From my own experience I would suggest that buying a similar age mx5 to my z4 is probably the worst decision anyone can make...i spent weeks underneath trying to keep rust at bay and every other mx5 will be the same. It was a bloody money pit and I would tell anyone listening to steer well clear. I do of course think the z4 roadster is the best z4 money can buy - an invite there for coupe owners to bite back

[Flyingfifer]

Do you not think that a document expressed entirely as ratios, percentages and averages of sums might perhaps be a misrepresentation of reality (deliberate or otherwise)?

There is always a risk of that which is why understanding the methodology is so important a perfect example would be the "wage gap" claim, its an average of an average of an average used as a definitive fact in order to push a specific narrative.

Also, you mention confirmation bias in response to a previous poster, but also hear "all white people are racist" from BLM? Not saying that some people affiliated with the movement don't seem to think that, of course. It's a hot mess.

I do hear that often and widely, I have also seen them use racial segregation against the media and people on their protests, when speaking to self identified BLM people they have also parroted this at me (although this is entirely anecdotal) never mind the fact that the movement is by definition racially identitarian.

I promised myself I would move on from this topic but it is important and stimulating...'hot mess' is about right and I think this reflects the passionate views people have about some issues, the sense of self, ideas of what society could or perhaps should look like. We look at issues like this from a standpoint, a place that we know, we believe in and it is quite possible that this will be biased because much of this bias is unconscious. Bias and schemas are concepts that influence how we see things, our expectations of others and often keep us safe and reassured that we are right, in our view, and others are not. These operate across class, ethnicity, socio economic divides and so on.

100% agree
Personally that is why I enjoy discussing these topics so much, especially with those that have different opinions to my own, it gives me the opportunity to challenge my own perspectives and they may bring a perspective or point that I hadn't considered. Civil discourse is the solution to almost every problem.

I do of course think the z4 roadster is the best z4 money can buy - an invite there for coupe owners to bit back

I also agree with this, however if you want the best Z4... thats a coupe