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DSLR Cameras + Drones

Discuss anything non Z4 related here
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jimmybell
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Post by jimmybell » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:47 pm

Was just at a friends house playing with his borrowed 5DMKII (+nifty50), now i'm FF envious+++ :D

I did think an upside of me sticking with Canon is potentially sharing/borrowing lenses with mates too (i do like my fiances old nikon but i know the canon setup better).

would you say if you want L-glass, the standard L series lenses seem to suit FF cameras better? as 24-70 or 24-105 on an 80d/7dmkii will result in 38-112 equiv etc, so you seem to miss out on lots at the wide end - thus perhaps need an extra lens for wider angle stuff that you may not need with a FF camera.

I'm thinking the most broad purpose setup will make the best sense for me for now. in the next 18 months i'm doing 5-6 hols that'l result in landscape/scenery photog and perhaps some slow moving wildlife most likely at a distance away, all will involve taking portrait pics (3 trips are weddings!), and similarly 2-3 motorsport/automotive events that'l encompass static (probably up close) AND fast moving cars (at a distance), so either i'm buying 3 lenses and a body that can do everything, or perhaps 1 solid body and 1 all-rounder lens where the all-rounder fits into a future set of lenses.

FWIW, i just found my old 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 IS in a cupboard, so i have that - but i think its trying to do too much and isn't particularly 'good' at anything.

So it's either 6DMKII + 24-105 (then buy/rent/borrow 70-200 for motorsport?), vs 7DMKII/80d + not-sure as any additional lens would probably overlap heavily at either end? you can see why people end up with a collection of camera kit....
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Post by bluespit » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:14 pm

reading this with great interest, the pics earlier are magnificent.

I have a lowly 700D but never get anywhere near the sharpness, definition, contrast or depth of field in the ones above.

so the 2 million dollar question is.... is it me or is it my kit?
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Post by jimmybell » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:38 pm

bluespit wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:14 pm
kit enables you to do more stuff more easily, but understanding all the concepts means you can still do everything to some extent. that said, i think there's a certain subset of kit that is 'essentials' to achieve certain things. I imagine Tom can provide examples of where kit enables stuff (like why you might own a wide prime, or a fast telephoto, or what a 700d might snap vs a 7D etc), tho i imagine most pros would say the photographer is more important than the kit.

I'd highly recommend something like a nifty 50 for a great (cheap) additional lens to any bag, and a good excuse to try something different/learn some stuff.

share one of your photos you wish you could improve, or want to know why isn't as good as one of Tom's, we can then guess why so and the pro can then edumacate us :D
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Post by bluespit » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:49 pm

ooohhhhh I feel all vulnerable now

in for a penny, taken yesterday
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Post by bluespit » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:59 pm

this was the one I wanted

others taken last October in nice sunlight
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Post by jimmybell » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:14 am

I guess from Tom's samples you could take his line-of-F40s shot, and his Hallin fell shot for similar subjects as yours to compare/discuss.

Lots of Tom's quality is the composition, rule of thirds, using positioning to manipulate the subject, etc etc, but he's also using specific kit to match to the subject - like a lens that can snap incredible low light sunsets adding further value to a well composed shot, or understanding what the aperature + length enables him to capture, thus positioning himself to fill the screen with F40s and have them all in focus, etc.

I'm a basic amateur (but i'll try to come up with something productive to say haha), but i'd say with a line of cars as you have - it's hard to get dramatic effect as they're arranged in such a way that prevents you filling the screen with them, so you end up with lots of tarmac, and lots of grey sky. With some kit, you can make grey sky more interesting (CPL filter,perhaps a better lens may allow you to capture a higher IQ etc.), but probably you want to arrange the cars to suit a photo, and/or position yourself to best capture the subject rather than the stuff you dont want it in the shot. Also mixing people with cars - i guess that kinda makes it a bit harder, i dont really know any 'tried and tested' ways to make that work. perhaps arranging all the people in the foreground and having all the cars behind might make it more interesting (and the cars could be outside the focused area, so there's a blur of coloured cars and some sharp faces or something). Though writing that does remind me there's a difference between styles of photography too - like 'documentary' vs 'fine art' type stuff, so different pros would approach in different ways.

By pure fluke i've done a similar photo, you can see i could do with taking some of my own 'advice' (hence half of it is knowing what to do at the time you take the picture!). Given the choice to take the shot again i'd try to fill more of the screen with the subject (and less tarmac/crap sky), which is perhaps why tom knows from experience to angle the camera a bit.

ImageParking Lot by JimmyBell, on Flickr

Here's another one i took of the same subject, in a different situation (clearly! :D). i like how i've composed it, but i had a crappy 18-200mm lens that whilst i could CAPTURE it, it's not high quality, so there's blur and no real depth to it. likely a 70-200 L lens, or probably a much longer one would enable me to get a nicer result.

ImageDiamond 9 by JimmyBell, on Flickr

I'll let tom critique further :D half the battle is knowing what to do in the moment, as moments done tend to last. I know the parking lot photo was me literally walking past with a group of pilot mates, and i took 5 seconds to stop and grab a shot, didn't really have time to figure out the best angle or try a few different things.

Oh and with car photog, the 'done thing' seems to be front quarter with wheel facia facing the camera. Here's a crap car photo of mine, vs a good one (apologies instagram is generally low quality and budget filters used left right and centre):
https://www.instagram.com/p/BczPRSflP1j
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYv-Mvfls5y/
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Post by bluespit » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:30 am

the car photo is for a classic car mag (specific owners small circulation c1500)

I did also try a variation on the theme using fewer cars - sadly my mates in the photo too as its a charity thing again for the mag..
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Post by Lance » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:50 am

Hi Bluespit, are you using the kit lens? I found on my rather older EOS400 that the kit lens was very average and got myself a nifty 50 and was immediately happier with my shots. For me the 50 was great, however, limited in its use.

Please remember as well that an awful lot of good photos that you see aren't as they came out of the camera, have you tried basic editing? Both Snapseed and LR (lightroom) are available on an iPad and are very easy to use. I was using Snapseed but found it was compressing my files at the expense of some sharpness, LR retains the sharpness.

Youtube is great for learning about your camera and its settings, some of the tutorials are very very helpful.

I'm a keen but very novice photographer, but keep practising and trying new things, the results do improve bit by bit. I currently have a Sony A6000 with a kit lens and a 19mm prime. Really enjoy this camera! Am off to NZ is a couple of weeks, camera and tripod packed.

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Post by pvr » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:10 am

Just a point re 6DMKII versus 5DMKIV, point to note that on the 6D you will get more in the image than what you see whilst on the 5D it is a 100% match.

Might not be relevant for everyone, but if you use it for filming for example it could get very irritating that you get extra items on your film which you did not see through the finder.
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Post by hopz121 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:28 am

You really need to decide what you are shooting OP.

FF Canons are great I must admit but they are heavy and Lenses are expensive too.

If you want to shoot Motorsport a 70/80D would be a lot better than a MDMK2 as its a lot faster, also the Crop Sensor will go in your favour here too.
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Post by tomscott » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:43 am

PVR is correct the viewfinder is 98% vs 100% which means it misses a very small amount of the frame. Its not ideal but it just means you have a bit of wiggle room with your composition. Plus you get what you pay for the 6DMKII is nearly half the price and 90% the quality.

There are a lot of aspects to try and master. The most basic being composition which is key, light and its direction and how to manipulate, technical aspect what you camera and lenses can do for you, be that perspective/distortion and then depth of field, how much of the subject is in focus and what does it do for the viewer. You can use DOF to isolate subjects or to make sure the whole scene is in focus, exposure triangle, what the ISO aperture and shutter speed does and how changing one effects the other. The last part of the puzzle is post processing.

All of the above are art forms in their own right. Composition in photography came from painting, using leading lines, rule of thirds, golden triangle etc etc The tech side can really enable you to push your image making, if you are shooting outside of your cameras abilities then it makes life very difficult and this is the main thing that I get questions about, why have i spent X amount and the images look worse than my phone.

The main thing to learn is light, you can do anything with any modern DSLR like I showed with the 12 year old 40D. Obviously photography is the action of capturing light. Regardless of the gear if there is no light or limited light or you aren't taking control of a scene that is backlit you wont capture the subject well. That is the real skill you bringing back an image in post can create weird results that dont look true to life or just dont work because you cant add light where it didnt exist.

You can know everything about the gear, tech wise, and fumble composition but if the light is right the image can come to life. Figuring out a situation is key and that is the difference between an amateur and a professional. It can save you so much time editing later on or even reduce the need for that skill to a large extent. Time of day, direction of light etc each needs to be tackled differently with exposure compensation or adding/removing light.

One of the best things to start with is in the field is put your hand out in front of you with your palm toward your face and rotate 360deg and you will see where the light is by the tonality on your palm. You look like a moron but to start with it makes image making a lot easier and as you learn you see it automatically.

Putting your subject where the light is or is not in some cases saves time and complicated technical image making as trying to overpower the sun if you are shooting a subject into the sun (silhouetted) is a skill that takes a lot of practice and time to achieve. If the sun is the most powerful factor in photography and if it is very bright its better to put your subject in the shade and have the background where the light is falling and it highlights your subject. Just doing this can create amazing images in comparison to People always think when its sunny thats the best time. As a portrait photographer its my worst nightmare and just want to put a big diffuser over everything.

ImageTSP_Charlotte & Jason-5 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Image

Works with all subjects like this cute lamb :)

ImageSunbathing Lamb, Lowther Estate, Penrith Cumbria by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Sometimes its not possible. I was shooting an event here where its was outdoor and the sun was very high and I was documenting didnt want to be moving people around etc. Even with a fill flash the sun is so strong that you cant help getting shadows under the eyes and strong hard highlights.

ImageLouise's Birthday, Low House Armathwaite by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Anyway with more set up images not just of the moment you can largley remove this by putting the subject in the shade.

ImageLouise's Birthday, Low House Armathwaite by Tom Scott, on Flickr

ImageLouise's Birthday, Low House Armathwaite by Tom Scott, on Flickr

You have to try and get the best out of the kit your using also, all cameras have their downfalls so getting to know what it can do and how far to push it is key. For example if you know that the camera is noisy at 1600ISO or over you need to use a tripod and manually dial the exposure. If the camera isnt great at recovering shadows then you need to bracket and shoot 3-7 images and bring them together later in post or add more light with light modifiers like flash or reflectors etc.

For example when I got the 6DMKII I took it out to test its limits and deliberately underexposed a backlit subject.

ImageMelanistic Fallow Deer, Dunham Massey, Cheshire out of camera by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Then in post equalized the exposure

ImageMelanistic Fallow Deer, Dunham Massey, Cheshire by Tom Scott, on Flickr

This way I know that the camera can pull roughly 2-3 stops of light before noise and colour inaccuracy ruin the image. Knowing this means you can expose to the left (underexpose) and pull the shadows back in post later without the use of a light modifier. As you can see in the image its not ideal because the subject is still a bit under exposed. It works both ways your camera might be better at pulling back highlights than shadows.

The 5DMKIII was really bad at pulling shadows so I used to expose the other way as its highlight retention was much better.

Todays cameras give you so much latitude that you can create incredible images from poor exposure but that isnt really the way to do it.

I like to shoot in all sorts of conditions and my favorite is usually the more difficult because you get in my mind more interesting results. Like shooting into the light, placing a subject into the sun and then lighting the subjects. You get a lovely halo around them as they are illuminated and then you fill the subject from the front with a light modifier. This is fairly easy with a static image but with a moving subject its much more difficult. If you have your camera on auto it will either expose for the forground making the sun blow out or the sun making your subject silhouette. Its a situation where you have to take control using manual exposure.

Few car examples

ImagePorsche 991, 911 50th Anniversary Edition Coupe by Tom Scott, on Flickr

This one is into the sun

ImagePorsche 911 Carrera S, Malcesine, Lake Garda, Italy by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Then the same situation with the sun behind me

ImagePorsche 911 Carrera S, Malcesine, Lake Garda, Italy by Tom Scott, on Flickr

ImagePorsche 911, Sustens Pass, Switzerland by Tom Scott, on Flickr

ImageBMW E46 M3 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

With this one I clipped the highlights too much so the sun is a little too over exposed but again getting it right with a moving subject is a lot more difficult.

ImagePorsche 962, BP Leyton House, Group C, twilight race, Silverstone Classics 2015 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Shooting into the sun gives such nice warm results and really creates captivating images

ImageBMW Z4M Coupe, Silver Grey, CSL wheels by Tom Scott, on Flickr

ImageBMW Z4M Coupe, Silver Grey, CSL wheels by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Same with portraiture.

Image

If the light is right it really brings the scene to life. Nothing better than that warm tone. Even for just documenting.

ImageBMW Z4M Coupe, Z-Fest, Silverstone Classics 2013 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

ImageLotus 16 368, No.1 Philip Walker, 1959, Froilan Gonzalez Trophy for HGPCA pre 62 Grand Prix, Silverstone Classics 2013 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

ImageFerrari 512 LM, No.100, 1970, Chevron B8, Paul Drayson, 1968, FIA Masters Historic Sports Cars, Silverstone Classics 2013 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

ImageCourage C26S, No.71, Georg Kjallgren, 1989, Group C Endurance, Silverstone Classics 2013 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

ImageAston Martin DBR4, No.12, Wolfgang Friedrichs, 1959, Froilan Gonzalez Trophy for HGPCA Pre 61 Grand Prix, Silverstone Classics 2013 by Tom Scott, on Flickr

When the light is right it makes life so much easier but its often not.

The worst time to shoot is at noon-2pm because the sun is at its highest but again if you have a certain car colour it can really work to your advantage, dark or mono colours like white black silver grey look fantastic. You can get really contrasty images with a lot of clarity and it shows the lines of the car. The higher the sun is the more direct it is and it has less filtering which is what photographers call hard light you get crisp shadows and there is no fall off so the image becomes very striking.

In this case I used the sun as the main key light and then filled the rest with some portable studio lights. You can get the same results with 2 flashes either side. The difficulty is trying to overpower the sun at this time of the day.

ImageBMW Z4M Coupe CSL wheels by Tom Scott, on Flickr

ImageBMW Z4M Coupe with CSL wheels by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Or in the worst case scenario you can go to town with post processing and get some really good results.

ImageBMW Z4M Coupe, Ulswater Boat house, Cumbria by Tom Scott, on Flickr

To the average person would they ever know?

ImageVolkswagen Beetle 1966 Widnes by Tom Scott, on Flickr

ImageVW Beetle by Tom Scott, on Flickr

That one I pushed really far but still really like the result.

You can do amazing things in post processing and these days it is a necessity shooting raw as these images come out completely flat and nothing like the original situation. This is so you can pull out all the detail possible to recreate your scene. Colouring an image can really aid but at the end of the day getting it right first time helps.

At the end of the day its about effort putting the hours in and timing your shoots, getting up at stupid O clock to get the results. With most of my shoots I will scout the place first probably the day before then use an app like Sunseeker to show me where the light will be at what time and that helps me plan where it might be best to shoot.

Sometimes you just have to make the effort at stupid hours.

ImagePerseid meteor shower and Milky Way, Hallin Fell, Ullswater, Cumbria by Tom Scott, on Flickr

About 1-30am

ImageMesa Arch, Canyonlands, Utah by Tom Scott, on Flickr

5-30am -12deg

ImageMoonlit Haweswater Reservoir, Corpse Road, Cumbria by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Full moon landscape you can see the stars. 4-5am ish

Image

2am Mt bromo volcanic eruption

Experience is key and making a quick decision and not panicking about what to do. Like with anything to start with it can be a bit nerve wracking but once you have done it numerous times it becomes bread and butter. For me my issues is making more interesting images. Commercial imagery is where the money is and its a bit boring, I often get stuck in a rut and look at other peoples work to give me inspirations. Its not cheating it just aids your own creativity and inspires you to make a better image.

I think you genuinely have to have a passion similar to the cars and that what gets you out and the hunger to make a captivating image etc.

The best advice I can give is just learn the basics and the rules get out and shoot and once you start to improve break all the rules and have fun!
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Post by Lance » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:06 pm

Tom, some great shots there :thumbsup:

The green #12 car with the old boy looking down pit lane is a cracking shot!

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Post by jimmybell » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:13 pm

pvr wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:10 amJust a point re 6DMKII versus 5DMKIV, point to note that on the 6D you will get more in the image than what you see whilst on the 5D it is a 100% match.

Might not be relevant for everyone, but if you use it for filming for example it could get very irritating that you get extra items on your film which you did not see through the finder.
Didn't have you as a 'tog! What do you use/like using? Worth noting certainly, but 5D is quite pricey (an doesn't beat the 7D/80D for motorsport i guess), so not sure it adds much value for me. I'm likely to get more out of the flippy screen on the 6DMKII (because i'm an idiot), than the extra specs the 5d may provide, i guess.

hopz121 wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:28 amYou really need to decide what you are shooting OP.

FF Canons are great I must admit but they are heavy and Lenses are expensive too.

If you want to shoot Motorsport a 70/80D would be a lot better than a MDMK2 as its a lot faster, also the Crop Sensor will go in your favour here too.
But if FPS is the reason they shine - i guess i can just say 'people used to take motorosport photos well before the days of 10fps+ cameras', so i should be able to work around it.

I think the crop-sensor distance advantage is nice but i imagine i'd have a specific lens for this task anyway so could offset some of that... Unless i whack that same specific lens on an 80d and got easier better results.

soooo long story short - no one setup can do all things well. hah. Seems like 80D+18-135+nifty50 might make a nice option and very cheap, vs 6DMKII and 24-105 + 70-200 + probs still buy a nifty50 again for fun. Former being probably £1000 all in and latter being £2000+ lol, eugh.
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Post by jimmybell » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:16 pm

tomscott wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:43 am
great post - thanks. once you start digging into the cameras and specs i can really understand what you're saying, and your examples make it obvious, thus very helpful.

Love the post-processed beetle, looks great.
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Post by tomscott » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:46 pm

jimmybell wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:13 pm
pvr wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:10 amJust a point re 6DMKII versus 5DMKIV, point to note that on the 6D you will get more in the image than what you see whilst on the 5D it is a 100% match.

Might not be relevant for everyone, but if you use it for filming for example it could get very irritating that you get extra items on your film which you did not see through the finder.
Didn't have you as a 'tog! What do you use/like using? Worth noting certainly, but 5D is quite pricey (an doesn't beat the 7D/80D for motorsport i guess), so not sure it adds much value for me. I'm likely to get more out of the flippy screen on the 6DMKII (because i'm an idiot), than the extra specs the 5d may provide, i guess.

hopz121 wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:28 amYou really need to decide what you are shooting OP.

FF Canons are great I must admit but they are heavy and Lenses are expensive too.

If you want to shoot Motorsport a 70/80D would be a lot better than a MDMK2 as its a lot faster, also the Crop Sensor will go in your favour here too.
But if FPS is the reason they shine - i guess i can just say 'people used to take motorosport photos well before the days of 10fps+ cameras', so i should be able to work around it.

I think the crop-sensor distance advantage is nice but i imagine i'd have a specific lens for this task anyway so could offset some of that... Unless i whack that same specific lens on an 80d and got easier better results.

soooo long story short - no one setup can do all things well. hah. Seems like 80D+18-135+nifty50 might make a nice option and very cheap, vs 6DMKII and 24-105 + 70-200 + probs still buy a nifty50 again for fun. Former being probably £1000 all in and latter being £2000+ lol, eugh.
The flippy screen has really evolved my photography onto another level its such a great tool and so far with having two different models and both having a lot of hammer I dont really think it affects the camera body strength that much. This point is generally where the purists sit on the issue. It just helps get angles you wouldnt otherwise.

TBH the 5DMKIV is probably the best all round camera with 8fps it will capture motorsport well and with 30mp gives you lots of room to crop and the AF system is incredible. The 6DMKII is such a great little camera, its a lot lighter but it doesnt feel as robust, has the flippy screen and the full frame sensor, granted not quite as good as the MKIV and neither is the AF system but its a very compelling option.

Having both I always grab the 6DMKII for personal stuff because its light and it has the tilt screen. I also love the wifi and GPS. When out and about I can send it to my phone and edit it in lightroom and send straight away. Love that feature.

Was out with some friends and my god daughter and they wanted an image to send to a parent for a birthday so outputted there and then. Great way to work. Only really use the 5DMKIV for work.

The issue is the expensive L lenses and 200mm certainly doesnt feel particularly long and for motorsport away from trackside may feel a little short but a converter like a 1.4 or 2x will sort this I shot the 70-200 with both for a long time because you can just take them off if need be. It saves you from carting two 2kg lenses all day. The issue with them is they cut the amount of light passing through the lens, the F2.8 turns into an F4 on the 1.4 and the 2x turns it into an F5.6. They also slow the AF of the lens significantly, although ive never really had trouble with it at all but it is there. They are also expensive running 300-500 each.

The other option is the 100-400 MKII which is a similar price but obviously doesnt give you the F2.8.

An 80D solution would also be ideal and telephoto L lenses like the 70-200mm F2.8 give great focal lengths. Still buying 24-70 and 24-105mm L lenses makes no sense in my mind, the only benefit is if you upgrade later but really buying the best for now is better than buying the best for later.

I really hate my 24-105 on crop sensor bodies its super soft and slow, it is one of my all time faves on full frame just performs completely differently. You get as good IQ and the correct focal length from EF-S lenses but good ones are as expensive like the 17-55mm and they dont have the same build or weather sealing. What you do get is the IS which I would take all day long. It really anoys me that Canon still dont make a 24-70mm F2.8 IS regardless of how good you are IS really helps get more keepers. Im still on the MKI version of the 24-70 because I like the backward zoom the hood, the new one is better but I dont think its worth the extra at this point.

It depends which trade off is worthwhile.

The other option that hasnt been spoke about is buying preowned. L lenses take a lot of hammer and many are owned by amateurs that dont use them like pros so are in great condition. London camera exchange is excellent and its amazing how much good gear is available for not a lot of money. Worth weighing up against SLRhut and Digitalrev some things are similar price preowned than they are new from those kinds of companies. If its within 10% I usually buy new but have also bought a lot of preowned gear, amazing how people baby it.

Last option is buying last generation which are still excelent cameras. 5DMKIII, 70D, etc Worth having a look on London Camera Exchange.

Some other niche specialist lenses are nice for documentation, 135mm F2, 35mm, the 50mm you spoke of just be careful with the 1.4 its renowned for having lens issues, any knock will miss align the elements and over time the same thing happens. Its a nice lens tho. 85mm etc primes are lovely. Personal preference but I love the zooms, F2.8 is so narrow on full frame I find thats all I need it gives you a bit more room for error than a 1.4 and 1.2. 1.4 is nice on crop because its similar to a 2.8 lens, the only way to get into good FF DOF levels.

Another interesting choice as a walk around lens is the 18-35mm F1.8 specifically for crop

https://store.digitalrev.com/product/si ... MjY1NQ_A_A

Gives 28-56mm equivalent but you get a 2.8 zoom lens on crop. Only lens of its kind, the length is a bit limiting but gets real F2.8 in a zoom.
jimmybell wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:16 pm
tomscott wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:43 am
great post - thanks. once you start digging into the cameras and specs i can really understand what you're saying, and your examples make it obvious, thus very helpful.

Love the post-processed beetle, looks great.
Thanks just nice to share a few images :)
Last edited by tomscott on Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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