Would you change your vote ?

[Jembo]

So, if the EU offered back control of our borders, concessions on our subscriptions & other things just so we remain... would you consider changing your mind?

No.

If you've read my earlier postings in this thread you would be correct to deduce that I think that the EU project is an attempt at total domination of the whole of the European peoples by economic and social means. The EU is yet another attempt at German domination of Europe.

I see it somewhat analogous to Beatrix Potter's Tale of Jemima Puddle-Duck where the EU is the Sandy Whiskered Gentleman.

Appreciate your position, was more interested if anything could ever change your mind.

[Smartbear]

So, if the EU offered back control of our borders, concessions on our subscriptions & other things just so we remain... would you consider changing your mind?

No.

If you've read my earlier postings in this thread you would be correct to deduce that I think that the EU project is an attempt at total domination of the whole of the European peoples by economic and social means. The EU is yet another attempt at German domination of Europe.

I see it somewhat analogous to Beatrix Potter's Tale of Jemima Puddle-Duck where the EU is the Sandy Whiskered Gentleman.

I prefer the animal farm analogy, “all animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others”
Rob

[exdos]

Appreciate your position, was more interested if anything could ever change your mind.

I have nothing against the EEC when it's all about economic trading but was dead against Maastricht and the creation of the EU with all the social and political implications. I don't want to live in a one-size-fits-all merged society. I've visited many European countries and very much enjoy the differences that exist between us all as cultures and long may that be the case.

[ronk]

I’ll review the Pro Brexit comments again when we are out and the economy has inevitably taken a hit!

[firebobby]

Appreciate your position, was more interested if anything could ever change your mind.

I have nothing against the EEC when it's all about economic trading but was dead against Maastricht and the creation of the EU with all the social and political implications. I don't want to live in a one-size-fits-all merged society. I've visited many European countries and very much enjoy the differences that exist between us all as cultures and long may that be the case.

My thoughts exactly

[Vornwend]

In 2016 (last published data that I could find) the UK was the third largest contributor at 13.5% behind France 16.6% and Germany 19%

There is almost an infinite number of different ways of calculating the contributions made to the EU by each of the member states. In my earlier posting where I stated that the UK is the second biggest contributor I used the information provided here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm under the "Net Contributions" button.

The accepted way of measuring our contribution is after the rebate has been applied. The UK actually nets this off before making payments so that makes sense. Your link relates to data that is 11 years out of date. Mine was much more recent https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-bigg ... eu-budget/

[exdos]

The accepted way of measuring our contribution is after the rebate has been applied. The UK actually nets this off before making payments so that makes sense. Your link relates to data that is 11 years out of date. Mine was much more recent https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-bigg ... eu-budget/

You're correct on the years of figures but my point is still the same. EU contributions can be calculated in a host of different ways where even Greece is the biggest relative contributor. But as I've said previously there's a lot more to Brexit (and the EU) than the Economy.

The bigger point is the agenda and Trojan Horse that is the EU. The peoples of Europe are being herded like sheep as part of a master plan:
"Europe's nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."

Jean Monnet (Founding Father Of The EU in a letter to a friend 30th April 1952). Winner of the Charlemagne Prize 1953

You can fool most of the people most of the time...

[Mr Tidy]

exdos wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:08 pm
Jembo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:57 pm
Appreciate your position, was more interested if anything could ever change your mind.


I have nothing against the EEC when it's all about economic trading but was dead against Maastricht and the creation of the EU with all the social and political implications. I don't want to live in a one-size-fits-all merged society. I've visited many European countries and very much enjoy the differences that exist between us all as cultures and long may that be the case.

My thoughts exactly

Yes, that's exactly how I feel about it too!

[sp3ctre]

I’ll review the Pro Brexit comments again when we are out and the economy has inevitably taken a hit!

Nobody is saying the economy won’t take a hit, of course it will. The point is many, including me, think it will be worth it in the long term. Anyone who thinks there will be no hit at all is dillusional. My vote is for my son’s future, not for mine.

[Jembo]

I’ll review the Pro Brexit comments again when we are out and the economy has inevitably taken a hit!

Nobody is saying the economy won’t take a hit, of course it will. The point is many, including me, think it will be worth it in the long term. Anyone who thinks there will be no hit at all is dillusional. My vote is for my son’s future, not for mine.

I doubt any of the remainers for one minute question your motives, we are all looking for what’s best for the U.K.

I find the mutual respect behind good business (& friendship) is collaboration, cooperation & certainty, where once you have all 3 together you create trust.

We have fundamentally broken the EU’s trust... & as it so happens historically broken agreements all over the world time & time again, but that’s another matter. I for one & most I know avoid those I don’t trust.

This is where I have the concern as already within the EU, Africa & Asia more & more people are becoming stand offish & critical... & this perception will do more harm than good - if you think time will heal this rift, there are many examples where it has only got worse.

I believe the EU will no doubt continue to trade with us, thought they will always remember this, so you have to ask why would they want to agree the best deals, as likely they’ll only agree those where it suits them.

All in the lap if the Gods now...

[Vornwend]

I find it interesting that several people are mentioning loss of cultural differences as a reason to leave. Have we got any practical examples of that or is it just a vague (dare I say nebulous) feeling? The world has changed so much and so fast in the last 50 years and become much more inter connected - for me the far greater threat to our cultures is the rise of multi national/global organisations and social media that, unlike politicians, are accountable to almost no one. They are happy to divide and rule where they can and see powerful bodies like the EU that seek to limit their power to exploit us as a threat - if there is a conspiracy at play here its that.

All my sons were angry and disappointed that the older generation voted to leave. They see the need for far greater co-operation and integration not less. Unlike so much of the older generation (a generalisation I know!) they also welcome cultural diversity within our own borders. The challenges their generation will face require concerted action and that is surely best facilitated by a closer union. Take, for example, how hard it is to get agreement on climate change.

[Vornwend]

I doubt any of the remainers for one minute question your motives, we are all looking for what’s best for the U.K.

I find the mutual respect behind good business (& friendship) is collaboration, cooperation & certainty, where once you have all 3 together you create trust.

We have fundamentally broken the EU’s trust... & as it so happens historically broken agreements all over the world time & time again, but that’s another matter. I for one & most I know avoid those I don’t trust.

This is where I have the concern as already within the EU, Africa & Asia more & more people are becoming stand offish & critical... & this perception will do more harm than good - if you think time will heal this rift, there are many examples where it has only got worse.

I believe the EU will no doubt continue to trade with us, thought they will always remember this, so you have to ask why would they want to agree the best deals, as likely they’ll only agree those where it suits them.

I echo all that

[MrPT]

All my sons were angry and disappointed that the older generation voted to leave. They see the need for far greater co-operation and integration not less. Unlike so much of the older generation (a generalisation I know!) they also welcome cultural diversity within our own borders. The challenges their generation will face require concerted action and that is surely best facilitated by a closer union. Take, for example, how hard it is to get agreement on climate change.

This is where I stand and why I voted differently to my parents. I can appreciate why they feel that the EU is a failed experiment and that it's very difficult for me to grasp the context in which they originally voted "in", but there is a philosophical difference between us that is irreconcilable. The whole sentiment behind it goes against the way I try and tackle most problems in work and my personal life (with the possible exception of being charged at by an axe wielding psychopath), and this is a trait I see in them too which is why it's very difficult to accept how they voted, but I've learnt that it's best to just agree to disagree in order to keep the peace.

The thing that some people here seem to have a good handle on, which I struggle with, is the extent to which social union is required in order to make an economic union a success. It's such a complex problem space. It would be amazing if our government could direct its energies into helping the layman digest the complexities of questions such as this, which are really fundamental to the whole debate, but endless postulating and self-serving nonsense seem to have taken hold!

[exdos]

I find it interesting that several people are mentioning loss of cultural differences as a reason to leave. Have we got any practical examples of that or is it just a vague (dare I say nebulous) feeling? The world has changed so much and so fast in the last 50 years and become much more inter connected - for me the far greater threat to our cultures is the rise of multi national/global organisations and social media that, unlike politicians, are accountable to almost no one. They are happy to divide and rule where they can and see powerful bodies like the EU that seek to limit their power to exploit us as a threat - if there is a conspiracy at play here its that.

All my sons were angry and disappointed that the older generation voted to leave. They see the need for far greater co-operation and integration not less. Unlike so much of the older generation (a generalisation I know!) they also welcome cultural diversity within our own borders. The challenges their generation will face require concerted action and that is surely best facilitated by a closer union. Take, for example, how hard it is to get agreement on climate change.

I was raised in a large Lancashire town in the 1950-60s which now looks like its sits within a foreign country due to mass immigration. I left in 1970, but I can imagine that many people who still live there, and many similar places like it, would tell you that mass uncontrolled immigration is THE reason why the UK voted for Brexit. My relatives who still live there hate it.

The UK electorate has never been permitted any involvement in debate on such huge cultural change and the EU has insisted upon Freedom of Movement as being one of its 4 pillars which created a further wave of mass immigration from Eastern Europe.

The Brexit Referendum was the first opportunity the UK electorate has had to register any kind of protest on immigration or European integration in the UK and so, to me, it's not at all surprising that ordinary working people of all ages should vote as they did.

It's quite clear from the riots against immigration in Brussels yesterday and in Germany in recent times, that it's not just the older generations that resent the cultural changes imposed upon us by the "elites" because it's the young disaffected who take to the streets whilst the older generations have bitten their tongues for so long.

[sp3ctre]

A health service and benefits system like ours is simply incompatible with free movement. I'm pretty sure if you carved up all aspects of the EU in an "a la carte" (yup, I see the irony of using a French phrase in a Brexit rant!, lol) fashion then I believe most people would not wish to keep free movement.

The EU should have always been about trade agreements. No wonder people get fed up with new countries getting added and being paid vast sums of money, and all they have to agree to is to behave themselves and not start wars.