(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

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Pbondar
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(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

Post by Pbondar » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:51 pm

MACK wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:31 pm
Pbondar wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:37 am
MACK wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:32 pm In for a penny and all that :D
That didn't take long, I thought you said the turbos were out of stock for a while.
The software for the autobox can be remapped/programmed to take out the limiters etc, is this something that the Performance Centre also offer? If so you might as well go the whole hog while its there

Yes it was a pleasant and unusual surprise that they beat their predicted delivery date :thumbsup:

I’ve asked then to remove the auto box limiters if they can...as I said some..Celtic don’t list the 8HP Z4 box in their de restrictive list..

Will see what gives...I’m finding that already in damp conditions that the Quaife lsd is earning its keep..
Not that we're Celtic's friend's after what happened with you and particularly their radio silence on it :D . But I think it's probably another case of the Z4 being the forgotten relation in the BMW family.

They seem to list pretty much every other BMW 8 speed auto model (link below) and I imagine the software is very similar in all the ZF boxes. When it comes to the E89 I'd have thought this is particularly true for N20 powered models, unless they're X Drive.

https://www.celtictuning.co.uk/news/261 ... -ecu-remap
Yes I agree, it should be the same / similar..as you know sometimes E89s are just omitted by oversight, the issue though sometimes is they just do something just slightly different...we’ll see what the Sunderland boys do..so far I’ve got more faith in them than Celtic..
2012 E89 N20 MSport Auto Atacama Yellow, Fully loaded in its day.. re-mapped/re-turbo’d/de-catted//re-intercooled/re-suspended/re-tyred/re-ARB’d/re-audio'd/re-wheeled/re-braked/re-diff'd/re-steered/diffuser/spoiler...change history on request
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(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

Post by R.E92 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:03 pm

Very interested to see what power these get you to. If your limited by torque at the gearbox then I'd expect the power curve to be nice and progressive towards the line. Should be a good measure of the tuner too, new turbos usually need big changes to the wastegate control and torque limits.

Keep a close eye on the engine timing and throttle position if they have monitoring for it, you want the throttle to be fully open throughout and the timing to be smooth and rise slowly towards the line, any sudden drops will likely be torque limitation.

Have you contacted xHP to see if they can do anything for the 8HP45?

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(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

Post by Pbondar » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:10 pm

Hello R.E92..thnx for the notes..when they re-did /re-set /re-mapped my Celtic tune I saw them looking through and pointing out various parameters such as asked for and actual throttle position, boost presssure, AFR, AIT etc so since they are having it for a whole week I'm hopeful they will do a good job, I'm paying for a lot of dyno time so they are not under time pressure from me..

330/340 BHP at the crank and 450-500nm is the stated expectations from Bimmerworld and others that have done this version..we will see..

xHP do not list the E89 ZF8HP box..as Celtic as well do not..
2012 E89 N20 MSport Auto Atacama Yellow, Fully loaded in its day.. re-mapped/re-turbo’d/de-catted//re-intercooled/re-suspended/re-tyred/re-ARB’d/re-audio'd/re-wheeled/re-braked/re-diff'd/re-steered/diffuser/spoiler...change history on request
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(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

Post by R.E92 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:21 pm

A lot of tuning shops will use xHP as their transmission tuning tool.

Just send an email to support@rbttuning.com about your specific gearbox. They support most of the newer ZF boxes so there's nothing stopping them from a technical standpoint. They just prioritise the ones that are likely to sell the most so you might get lucky and already be on their radar.

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(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

Post by Pbondar » Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:42 pm

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Well fresh back from the Sunderland guys with its new (slightly) bigger turbo..plus Wagner Evo intercooler..

Given the hype from the Americans slightly disappointed in the absolute power gains but..

The boys explained that they had spent way more hours on it than they thought they would have to..

Getting the pneumatic waste gate to function properly in place of the already fitted electronic waste gate was quite a faff.

They played with it a lot but decided this version was the best trade off between strain on the engine, turbo and auto box.

They did say that you could get more but then it could be quite variable and be pone to various issues, temp, humidity etc..

This version they said was rock steady, would improve a bit as it settled in and didn't need the box to be tweaked to cope.

As well as the usual guys the chap that writes the actual software was there and clearly a mine of information.

They said that running at 22psi boost was the best trade off and the slightly larger compressor shows a bit of lag compared to the OE part as part of attempt to flow 20% more air but the high compression ratio and shorter duration e/lower lift exhuast cam (compared to the version used on some models) ultimately limited power whilst keeping all parameters in the 'green zone'..

So there we go..clearly the law of diminishing returns has arrived..but heh..that was the experiment..

Should keep up easily with a stock 35i but not a re-mapped version..
2012 E89 N20 MSport Auto Atacama Yellow, Fully loaded in its day.. re-mapped/re-turbo’d/de-catted//re-intercooled/re-suspended/re-tyred/re-ARB’d/re-audio'd/re-wheeled/re-braked/re-diff'd/re-steered/diffuser/spoiler...change history on request
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(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

Post by biZ4rreMids » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:56 pm

The torque looks mighty impressive, slightly better than a stock 35is (336ft lb v 332ft lb). What were your initial thoughts on your drive back home?

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(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

Post by R.E92 » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:59 pm

That's a good result. Hopefully it drives OK at part throttle.

Wastegate tuning is pretty tricky, they are controlled in 2 parts, a standard base map that acts as a starting point for the wastegate and then a PID loop that adds or removes depending on how far under or over the target boost the pressure is. Getting a bigger turbo fully dialled in is tricky because the base map and the PID loop both need completely reworking. Usually takes a lot of road testing.

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(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

Post by Pbondar » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:36 pm

biZ4rreMids wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:56 pm The torque looks mighty impressive, slightly better than a stock 35is (336ft lb v 332ft lb). What were your initial thoughts on your drive back home?
The drive home was slightly unusual in the sense that the top was up as the weather was squally and showering..most of my high speed hooning has been top down..

The slight loss of bottom end sub 2500 rpm torque was surprisingly noticeable in typical low speed shuffle type traffic..it felt very muscular in the penultimate tune state so a slight loss as can be seen from the graph..

Once it got going it felt very powerful, first time I’ve started to have the back step out despite a Quaife limited slip diff..

The feel with the top up felt less refined, more brutal and less turbine whoosh..

So yes more powerful but for the money spent, with the benefit of hindsight not worth it for me..the previous version was the best cost/drivability/performance compromise...

Once again that ZF box just seems to rise to the challenge of the mods and has always been part of the solution not the problem..

So yes, great performance noticeable improvement despite relative small percentage change..

Glad I upgraded the brakes, the acceleration from say 55ish to 120 ish is pretty impressive so slowing down becomes more of an imperative..

You can see why many see the 35i as a handful
2012 E89 N20 MSport Auto Atacama Yellow, Fully loaded in its day.. re-mapped/re-turbo’d/de-catted//re-intercooled/re-suspended/re-tyred/re-ARB’d/re-audio'd/re-wheeled/re-braked/re-diff'd/re-steered/diffuser/spoiler...change history on request
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(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

Post by Pbondar » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:43 pm

R.E92 wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:59 pm That's a good result. Hopefully it drives OK at part throttle.

Wastegate tuning is pretty tricky, they are controlled in 2 parts, a standard base map that acts as a starting point for the wastegate and then a PID loop that adds or removes depending on how far under or over the target boost the pressure is. Getting a bigger turbo fully dialled in is tricky because the base map and the PID loop both need completely reworking. Usually takes a lot of road testing.

As far as I could see on the 75 mile drive home part throttle was perfectly behaved....thanks for your comments on the set up...that accords with how they described their ‘struggles’ to get it set up properly....I reckon they did about 10 hours of dyno time..they had it for 4 whole days..

I’ll see how it adapts / settles in..I need to test it on similar conditions, top down, same roads etc

It’s got more of a rumbly feel now rather than silky smooth but that may be the effect of driving top up for the first time with this and the previous tune...

As I said you can see that you’re trading more flow on the turbo against a small loss on the bottom end torque

Clearly making the LSD work for its living now..
2012 E89 N20 MSport Auto Atacama Yellow, Fully loaded in its day.. re-mapped/re-turbo’d/de-catted//re-intercooled/re-suspended/re-tyred/re-ARB’d/re-audio'd/re-wheeled/re-braked/re-diff'd/re-steered/diffuser/spoiler...change history on request
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(Relatively) Low cost Big Turbo upgrade for E89 N20 versions

Post by Pbondar » Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:40 pm

Had a chance to try the car top down on a sunny day on familiar roads in various modes today.

So in comfort mode the relative small reduction in torque at low rpm is what I picked up...it’s empathised by the auto box’s short shifting on low throttle settings..

Larger throttle settings show a wave of aggressive grunt still supported by the box preferring to short shift..

Putting it into Sports + mode and pressing the pedal hard starts to overwhelm the wheels..it will spin the wheels on an exit out of a junction despite the LSD..

It’s now reached the point where the brake upgrades and chassis mods just contain the extra power..

The lighter front end and better balance means mistakes are forgiven in a way that a stock 35i telegraphs you not to try..

It runs up to 120mph in a short distance given its head...at some point I’ll get a data logger on it to quantify it..

So for me, at this stage, it’s got to the point where enough is enough..

The de-cat exhaust adds an aggressive growl which is what I picked up transmitting sound/vibration to the cabin with the top up..it’s lost when the top is down..

Part throttle/ off throttle the engine is as well behaved as stock..
2012 E89 N20 MSport Auto Atacama Yellow, Fully loaded in its day.. re-mapped/re-turbo’d/de-catted//re-intercooled/re-suspended/re-tyred/re-ARB’d/re-audio'd/re-wheeled/re-braked/re-diff'd/re-steered/diffuser/spoiler...change history on request
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