Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Online
User avatar
Argyll Andy
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1751
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:16 pm
Location: Argyll & Bute

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by Argyll Andy » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:09 pm

Zforbes,

My point was BMW know best on what tyre pressure should be and maybe its 41 because the RFT's are fitted as standard and normal tyres should be different pressures.

So my question back, what are the benefits of running lower pressures?

In my experience the RFT’s with that pressure were just meh....... that how the run flats are. The PS4S’s with 41 felt they were running on a central band and definitely didn’t feel like the tyre was sitting flat on the road, dropped to 38, was better but nor perfect. Dropped to 34, too soft and didn’t feel great, back up to 36 and feels the best out of the lot.

Each time I adjusted the pressure I ran it up the same bit of road for comparison so they were being compared like for like before settling on 36. Fronts are running 34 :thumbsup:
Currently weekend toy-less

E89 35iS, Valencia Orange, Design Pure Traction pack, 677 Media, 19” 276’s with MPS4’s, stubby returns (Gone to a good home :thumbsup: )

E89 23i sDrive, Silver, Black leather heated MSport, Cruise, 296’s, Stubby (gone)

User avatar
mr wilks
Legend
Legend
Posts: 21645
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:02 pm
Location: Lancashire

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by mr wilks » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:20 pm

Zforbes wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:06 pm
Not wanting to start a disagreement, each to their own.

I don't agree with the rim damage though neither do I agree with causing wheels to crack even on RFT's. This is a common misconception because they are hard. The only impact RFT's have on wheel cracking is due to the amount of leverage pressure caused when fitting tyres due to the stiff bead. Cracking is caused by damage on the edge of the wheel that creates stress points that start the cracking.

No disagreement here , just debating & sharing thoughts & your points above are sure to create some discussion , a infinite amount of forum posts on the topic but i can't ever recall that theory being offered up , its a new slant to consider for sure .
3 ZMRs
3 E89s
5 Si coupes
5 Si roadsters

Audi TTRS , mapped & manual :driving:

Image

User avatar
Zforbes
Member
Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:12 pm
Location: Ribble Valley

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by Zforbes » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:51 pm

Not the only cause but I believe a common cause of a crack in a wheel that hasn't failed prematurely.

I visited a very large facility in Germany a few years ago for work and watched the manufacturering process for alloy wheels. Company was Otto Fuchs well known for their porsche alloys for those who don't recognise the name. It's an aluminium forging company that manufacturer parts for aerospace also which was the reason I was there but I won't bore you with that 🤣

Early failures are most definitely caused by hairline cracking on the outer edge of the ally billet used to make these things. The aerospace parts use fluorescent penetrant inspection detect this type of failure. The high volume auto industry doesn't as its too expensive.

If anyone is interested in how these are made I'd be happy to share knowledge as good as I can explain without trying to use engineering terminology that likely causes confusion. 😊
E89 sDrive 35is Titan Silver Kansas Black Leather

User avatar
Zforbes
Member
Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:12 pm
Location: Ribble Valley

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by Zforbes » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:30 pm

Argyll Andy wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:09 pm Zforbes,

In my experience the RFT’s with that pressure were just meh....... that how the run flats are. The PS4S’s with 41 felt they were running on a central band and definitely didn’t feel like the tyre was sitting flat on the road, dropped to 38, was better but nor perfect. Dropped to 34, too soft and didn’t feel great, back up to 36 and feels the best out of the lot.

Each time I adjusted the pressure I ran it up the same bit of road for comparison so they were being compared like for like before settling on 36. Fronts are running 34 :thumbsup:
Thanks Andy, I watch a lot of F1, the tyres are preferred to run low pressure for a reason only to get the fastest times although there is far too much complexity for me to understand on albeit small rims and tyres that are not fit for general use but tyre temp and brake temp being a good reaon to do so, so not a good comparison IMO for road cars but there is probably more to it than I can understand.

TBH I dont mind, in fact a like a bit of rear end wiggle when giving full beans at lower speeds but I think tyre temp and hardness of rubber is more about grip than pressure and tyre tread. The Bridgestone RFT's might as well be made of concrete with the only other tyres ive had little grip with are Pirelli's, others rate them but I hate them, non RFT's with little grip, not sure how hard they are though.

Ive never rin the PS4's on any car so not in a position to comment :thumbsup:

With non RFT's which I hope to run soon when I get it back and burn the old tyres I will experiment with pressures and report back, will certainly start at 41 on the rears though as wide low profile feels about right to me :thumbsup:
E89 sDrive 35is Titan Silver Kansas Black Leather

baz-j
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 9:48 pm

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by baz-j » Tue May 04, 2021 9:34 pm

Got the car back and took it straight to KwikFit to get two new shiny Pilots on the rear. BMW had checked the bushings and said they were ok. Looks like faster inner edge wear is standard given the camber on zeds (after the fact forum search...), but not too obvious to spot. As for the rips - I couldn't see them when laying flat on the ground with the tyres in situ so I'm bloody lucky to have taken it in for the suspension to be done for it to show up.

Having seen the old tyre removed from the car it's the case that the 4mm 'inner' measurement that the dealer gave at MOT was taken in a different location on the tyre to the 1mm measurement taken at the vehicle inspection last week. Hence the question mark over why there should be 3mm of wear with low mileage done since MOT - the answer is this wasn't the case...

At MOT they gave the depth of the innermost deep groove that wraps around the circumference of the tyre - which is what I'd expect. At the vehicle inspection last week in the same location on the report they entered the depth of the lateral sipes that form the pattern at the inner rim of the tyre as 1mm. The innermost groove going around the circumference was still 4mm deep.

I had KwikFit do an alignment check and the rears are spot on, but the fronts need doing. They wanted £79 just for the fronts, told them not today thanks as I wanted to get an opinion here on where to go.

I'm in Surbiton, SW London - PistonHeads had some posts saying Hounslow Tyres (£35 for fronts only) has a Hunter system that is operated by people who know what they are doing. Wheels in Motion is too far. Anyone used Tutts of Dorking, their website claims they have a pretty advanced system? (Hoffman rather than Hunter)

Any recommendations?
2013 E89 Midnight Blue 35is - iDrive, Cruise, PDC, Auto Aircon, Pro HiFi

User avatar
Zforbes
Member
Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:12 pm
Location: Ribble Valley

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by Zforbes » Tue May 04, 2021 10:13 pm

baz-j wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:34 pm Got the car back and took it straight to KwikFit to get two new shiny Pilots on the rear. BMW had checked the bushings and said they were ok. Looks like faster inner edge wear is standard given the camber on zeds (after the fact forum search...), but not too obvious to spot. As for the rips - I couldn't see them when laying flat on the ground with the tyres in situ so I'm bloody lucky to have taken it in for the suspension to be done for it to show up.

Having seen the old tyre removed from the car it's the case that the 4mm 'inner' measurement that the dealer gave at MOT was taken in a different location on the tyre to the 1mm measurement taken at the vehicle inspection last week. Hence the question mark over why there should be 3mm of wear with low mileage done since MOT - the answer is this wasn't the case...

At MOT they gave the depth of the innermost deep groove that wraps around the circumference of the tyre - which is what I'd expect. At the vehicle inspection last week in the same location on the report they entered the depth of the lateral sipes that form the pattern at the inner rim of the tyre as 1mm. The innermost groove going around the circumference was still 4mm deep.

I had KwikFit do an alignment check and the rears are spot on, but the fronts need doing. They wanted £79 just for the fronts, told them not today thanks as I wanted to get an opinion here on where to go.

I'm in Surbiton, SW London - PistonHeads had some posts saying Hounslow Tyres (£35 for fronts only) has a Hunter system that is operated by people who know what they are doing. Wheels in Motion is too far. Anyone used Tutts of Dorking, their website claims they have a pretty advanced system? (Hoffman rather than Hunter)

Any recommendations?
I'd be surprised if that amount of tyre wear on the rears is normal and acceptable although I'm new(ish) to Z4 ownership so stand being corrected.

I'd say at some point your tyre pressure has been run low as in the 20's not 30's or 40's PSI. Like you've said it wasn't noticable until you were made aware of it. Not sure how the TPMS works on the E89 but if it's based on wheel speed sensors like older BMW's I've had then a slow reduction in pressure does not trigger the TPMS.

Should you get the front done?

Cars over time do settle and this could give you an amount of error that will show incorrect results but I'd be asking myself a few questions like,

Have I hit something hard enough to move the geometry? Have the tyres worn unevenly? is the steering wheel not centered when driving in a straight line? Does it handle like a bag of spanners? If all 4 answers are a no, personally I wouldn't be getting it done, I may be in the minority again though :poke:

Why is it out? KwikFit use the Hunter system and as far as I'm aware it's the most reliable system available but how well trained are the technicians? How reliable is the system in the first place and are they just trying to relieve you of your hard earned?

Did they give you the amount of error or do you have to pay for that?
E89 sDrive 35is Titan Silver Kansas Black Leather

baz-j
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 9:48 pm

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by baz-j » Tue May 04, 2021 10:21 pm

Zforbes wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:13 pm
baz-j wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:34 pm Got the car back and took it straight to KwikFit to get two new shiny Pilots on the rear. BMW had checked the bushings and said they were ok. Looks like faster inner edge wear is standard given the camber on zeds (after the fact forum search...), but not too obvious to spot. As for the rips - I couldn't see them when laying flat on the ground with the tyres in situ so I'm bloody lucky to have taken it in for the suspension to be done for it to show up.

Having seen the old tyre removed from the car it's the case that the 4mm 'inner' measurement that the dealer gave at MOT was taken in a different location on the tyre to the 1mm measurement taken at the vehicle inspection last week. Hence the question mark over why there should be 3mm of wear with low mileage done since MOT - the answer is this wasn't the case...

At MOT they gave the depth of the innermost deep groove that wraps around the circumference of the tyre - which is what I'd expect. At the vehicle inspection last week in the same location on the report they entered the depth of the lateral sipes that form the pattern at the inner rim of the tyre as 1mm. The innermost groove going around the circumference was still 4mm deep.

I had KwikFit do an alignment check and the rears are spot on, but the fronts need doing. They wanted £79 just for the fronts, told them not today thanks as I wanted to get an opinion here on where to go.

I'm in Surbiton, SW London - PistonHeads had some posts saying Hounslow Tyres (£35 for fronts only) has a Hunter system that is operated by people who know what they are doing. Wheels in Motion is too far. Anyone used Tutts of Dorking, their website claims they have a pretty advanced system? (Hoffman rather than Hunter)

Any recommendations?
I'd be surprised if that amount of tyre wear on the rears is normal and acceptable although I'm new(ish) to Z4 ownership so stand being corrected.

I'd say at some point your tyre pressure has been run low as in the 20's not 30's or 40's PSI. Like you've said it wasn't noticable until you were made aware of it. Not sure how the TPMS works on the E89 but if it's based on wheel speed sensors like older BMW's I've had then a slow reduction in pressure does not trigger the TPMS.

Should you get the front done?

Cars over time do settle and this could give you an amount of error that will show incorrect results but I'd be asking myself a few questions like,

Have I hit something hard enough to move the geometry? Have the tyres worn unevenly? is the steering wheel not centered when driving in a straight line? Does it handle like a bag of spanners? If all 4 answers are a no, personally I wouldn't be getting it done, I may be in the minority again though :poke:

Why is it out? KwikFit use the Hunter system and as far as I'm aware it's the most reliable system available but how well trained are the technicians? How reliable is the system in the first place and are they just trying to relieve you of your hard earned?

Did they give you the amount of error or do you have to pay for that?
I haven't had tracking done on the car since the original set of tyres were bought several years ago and I have had a few potholes in that time. The offside front was red at 0.00 degrees (ie no toe-in so out for sure) and the nearside I don't recall but enough to be red. The guys said it was biased to the right.
2013 E89 Midnight Blue 35is - iDrive, Cruise, PDC, Auto Aircon, Pro HiFi

User avatar
Zforbes
Member
Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:12 pm
Location: Ribble Valley

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by Zforbes » Tue May 04, 2021 10:34 pm

baz-j wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:21 pm
I haven't had tracking done on the car since the original set of tyres were bought several years ago and I have had a few potholes in that time. The offside front was red at 0.00 degrees (ie no toe-in so out for sure) and the nearside I don't recall but enough to be red. The guys said it was biased to the right.
Quick google check for the numbers (don't quote me)

Front:
Camber: -.1 to -1.1 degrees
Caster: 6.5 degrees (no range listed)
Toe: .02 deg to .22 deg
SAI: 14.2 deg
Included Angle: 13.6 deg

That toe setting is tight IMO, I'd go back and get it rechecked just to see how repeatable that result is, if it repeats then make that small adjustment, id also ask to check whilst I was sat in the drivers seat :evil:

I'll keep an eye on this as I'm interested on the outcome and others opinions :thumbsup:
E89 sDrive 35is Titan Silver Kansas Black Leather

flybobbie
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 2456
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 8:27 pm

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by flybobbie » Wed May 05, 2021 6:51 am

I think BMW say loaded when tracking is checked.
From manual:
"Vehicle with complete equipment for normal operation
with:
2 x 68 kg on front seats (seats in central position); 1 x 14
kg in luggage compartment (centre) and full fuel tank."

Front toe limit. Total toe-in 0° 14' ± 12'
Rear toe limit is more than front.Total toe-in 0° 18' ± 12'

baz-j
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 9:48 pm

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by baz-j » Fri May 07, 2021 4:55 pm

Before I arrange to get the alignment done one more ask for anyone’s experiences with Hownslow Tyres or Tutts of Dorking?

Cheers
2013 E89 Midnight Blue 35is - iDrive, Cruise, PDC, Auto Aircon, Pro HiFi

mmm-five
Lifer
Lifer
Posts: 11800
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:03 pm
Location: South Liverpool
Contact:

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by mmm-five » Fri May 07, 2021 5:59 pm

Are those yellow marks on the tyres supposed to be showing where the 1mm is as well...as I'm having trouble making sense of the pictures.

If so, I think the dealer is pulling your pants down, as the MOT only checks the centre 3/4 of the tread - the shoulders are not part of the 'central' tread for these purposes...and can be bald for all intents and purposes.

Image

I'd check the depth in each of the circumferential grooves to see what the real figure is.

The little cuts could just be where you've pinched the tyre a little on a kerb. As long as the cut isn't deep, then I'd not worry too much.

I'm only saying this as BMW Chiswick tried a similar scam on me - claiming I needed 2 new rear tyres at £320 each - and when I double-checked, there was 4mm all over :headbang:
Trigger’s Z4MC
Some bits now over 163,000 miles, some less than 1,000 miles.
Individual Ruby Black, Individual extended champagne leather, plus many options

Image

baz-j
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 9:48 pm

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by baz-j » Sat May 08, 2021 5:04 pm

The yellow marks were so that they could easily find the places with the cuts for showing on video. The most wear was inline with both the cuts, you’re right this isn’t in the central 3/4. However the two cuts were down to the cords making it a fail.
2013 E89 Midnight Blue 35is - iDrive, Cruise, PDC, Auto Aircon, Pro HiFi

User avatar
tiglon
Member
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:20 am
Location: Essex

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by tiglon » Sat May 08, 2021 6:40 pm

I wouldn't trust Kwik Fit. Ever. Not to do work competently, not to tell the truth if something goes wrong, not to quote a fair price if they think they can get away with overcharging you and not to give an honest appraisal of what work is needed.

Maybe I'm being harsh on them, but that's the conclusion I've come to after two dealings with them. You'll be better off with pretty much any independent, who all rely on word of mouth advertising.
2014 E89 35iS in Valencia Orange with loads of fancy extras
2005 E85 20i manual in silver (gone)
2011 E89 30i manual in space grey (gone)

User avatar
Zforbes
Member
Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:12 pm
Location: Ribble Valley

Alarming Tyre Wear on Michelin Pilot 4S 35is

Post by Zforbes » Sat May 08, 2021 10:32 pm

tiglon wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:40 pm I wouldn't trust Kwik Fit. Ever. Not to do work competently, not to tell the truth if something goes wrong, not to quote a fair price if they think they can get away with overcharging you and not to give an honest appraisal of what work is needed.

Maybe I'm being harsh on them, but that's the conclusion I've come to after two dealings with them. You'll be better off with pretty much any independent, who all rely on word of mouth advertising.
I agree with you sentiment although I do accept that some branches are better than others, I've never used them and I dont think I ever will.

A couple of friends have though who know their cars, they use the hunter alignment system that is mentioned earlier, one friend purchased an offer to use their 10 X one payment alignment check but has always ended up with the spanners in his hand to ensure best results and he was happy with that, think he paid £120 to use their Hunter system 10 X in the 2 year window that was the promotion. Whilst he is hapry with that I do believe that there are far too many adjustments made that are not necessary IMO.

Cars do settle on the mounts and may show out of alignment but I do think we should leave them at factory settings if not shocked through significant impact and just replace the bushings when needed to take it back to stock.

My thoughts on this subject is watch tyre wear , look after your car and replace rubber parts when needed. I expect to replace loaded rubber every 5 - 8 years, don;t meddle with things if it aint broke :thumbsup:

As an engineer I always try to fix the root cause and not the symptom :D
E89 sDrive 35is Titan Silver Kansas Black Leather

Post Reply