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Roof fault

flybobbie
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Roof fault

Post by flybobbie » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:50 pm

Waiting for a code reader to arrive.
Temperature is normal.

But have discovered that the roof shell is unlocked when boot opens, so i need to prop up boot, pull the pump fuse, dump the pressure at the valve block with Allen key and manually lift the roof, so that i can get at the limit Hall switches.
When i press the open button, a relay can be heard clicking and clicks with every press of the open button, even with boot lid up and all the interior lights dim momentarily as it clicks. So something is pulling power but not operating.
The boot opens and it all stops without any error warnings, unless i start engine, i assume it thinks i am about to drive off with the boot open and then says roof fault.

I need to check voltages next and check that all three solenoids on the valve are operating using multimeter. Car starts no problem.

Adil_3
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Roof fault

Post by Adil_3 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:16 pm

Upon first reading this i noticed you said you mashed around with the buttons and it seemed to have closed once you got home and one part of the operation works and the other doesnt. Ive had a roof motor and had an issue similar to where the roof would get stuck half way but would close just fine. Just a quick check and its a cheap one at that,

Where the roof motor is located in the boot are two orange relays. One relay controls the down operation and the other the close operation. Intitially swap the two relays around and try pressing the roof see what happens in my case swapped the relays around roof went down didnt go back up swapped them back and roof went up. Ordered two new relays off bmw 20 pounds a pop in it goes all sorted.

Previous to this my roof motor blew, and i assume this was the culprit to it, over heating roof motor mixed with hydraulics and a faulty relay. Doesnt really harm to try if the roof motor seems okay and the micro switches are good also !

flybobbie
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Roof fault

Post by flybobbie » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:35 pm

The boot lid will rise and fall, so the the relays are switching the pump either way.
Boot lid is the only part of roof that will move, with the rest stuck in the boot.
When i press the buttons i hear the relays are clicking and the lights dim slightly so i think the pump is running, but the system is missing the command to raise the roof.
I'm first suspecting the hall switch in the right ram is not triggering, if it's ok it could be a valve solenoid in the block, but bound to be something simply in the end..

flybobbie
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Roof fault

Post by flybobbie » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:45 pm

Still waiting for a code reader but spotted a Mitsubishi colt lift ram and sensors at local scrap yard £25, worth a punt.
Bit dismayed to find both sensors cracked. So decided to cut one open.
Basically inside about £1 worth of electronics. The black square is the Hall sensor worth £0.50p, smd capacitor £0.05p and magnet, probably £0.50p. The Hall sensor was super glued inside the rectangular cut out over the hole and the whole lot sealed in rubber inside the plastic case.

I put a multimeter across the wires and passed magnets and steel across the sensor. The only output i could detect was that putting a 9v pp3 battery across the wires the voltage dropped by 1 volt and didn't vary when trying to detect.
But the current varied from 13.9 ma open to 3.0ma in detect. Both sensors did exactly the same.

I'm not sure any cracking would effect the sensor, seems pretty solidly molded in, no cracking of circuit board for instance.
Something you might notice are the wires, they look like they got hot and slightly overheated. The plastic case was also slightly lifted where the wires entered. The 2nd sensor is fine.
Attachments
sen.jpg
sen.jpg (103.15 KiB) Viewed 1300 times
sensor (1).jpg
sensor (1).jpg (109.67 KiB) Viewed 1300 times
ram.jpg
ram.jpg (105.64 KiB) Viewed 1300 times
Last edited by flybobbie on Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

flybobbie
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Roof fault

Post by flybobbie » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:44 pm

So having bought and received a Foxwell NT520pro (actually ordered a NT510) got using it to find out what the problem was.
Other than it telling me that nearly every limit had a problem, i cancelled them and started again.
Useful function was to see the limit switch operate real time.
So then removed the right boot lifter bracket to get at the cylinder. A bit tricky with the roof still in boot!
I pulled off each hall switch and passed a spanner over them, they all worked fine.
I tested the mechanical limit switches which lock the boot down, they worked fine.
Interestingly there was a name on the side of the hall switch lead, Gebauer & Griller, they seem to make wires.

So next i tested the relays for the pump. Relay 2 operated as the boot lid lifted and dropped, but relay 1 never came on.
So at the pump i swapped over the relays.
Then nothing would move. I pulled each relay and tested the coils with multimeter, seemed fine, they even clicked when a pp3 battery was put across the coils.
So off i trotted to BMW and bought two relays part No. 12 63 1 742 690 salmon pink colour. Bargain at £16 each fairly common part used on lots of BMW's. (cheaper than i had seen on internet).
Fitted them and now all working fine.
I took the old ones apart and can't see anything wrong with them.

So as preventative maintenance, might be good idea say after several years to just replace them.
I wonder how many random roof faults are caused by these relays and the code reader said about 5 limit switches had errors.
I wonder if these are getting replaced based on code reader errors, when there is nothing wrong with the switches.

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Smartbear
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Roof fault

Post by Smartbear » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:27 pm

flybobbie wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:44 pm So having bought and received a Foxwell NT520pro (actually ordered a NT510) got using it to find out what the problem was.
Other than it telling me that nearly every limit had a problem, i cancelled them and started again.
Useful function was to see the limit switch operate real time.
So then removed the right boot lifter bracket to get at the cylinder. A bit tricky with the roof still in boot!
I pulled off each hall switch and passed a spanner over them, they all worked fine.
I tested the mechanical limit switches which lock the boot down, they worked fine.
Interestingly there was a name on the side of the hall switch lead, Gebauer & Griller, they seem to make wires.

So next i tested the relays for the pump. Relay 2 operated as the boot lid lifted and dropped, but relay 1 never came on.
So at the pump i swapped over the relays.
Then nothing would move. I pulled each relay and tested the coils with multimeter, seemed fine, they even clicked when a pp3 battery was put across the coils.
So off i trotted to BMW and bought two relays part No. 12 63 1 742 690 salmon pink colour. Bargain at £16 each fairly common part used on lots of BMW's. (cheaper than i had seen on internet).
Fitted them and now all working fine.
I took the old ones apart and can't see anything wrong with them.

So as preventative maintenance, might be good idea say after several years to just replace them.
I wonder how many random roof faults are caused by these relays and the code reader said about 5 limit switches had errors.
I wonder if these are getting replaced based on code reader errors, when there is nothing wrong with the switches.
Result :thumbsup:
If the relay coils tested ok with a meter & the relays could be heard energising I’d say that indicates an HR or OC contact within the relay? :?
Rob
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e89 Sdrive 20i, plenty of mumbo & good economy-the thinking bears z4
e89 Sdrive 30i, this ones busted, pass me another...
e85 3.0si sold

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Smartbear
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Roof fault

Post by Smartbear » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:34 pm

Post by Smartbear » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:18 pm

flybobbie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:25 pm
Well this has caught up with me, hood stuck in boot, but boot lid lifts and closes ok.
Did go intermittent for a few minutes then stopped with roof in boot.
Almost like something finally failed, sensor, broken wire?
Have you tried swapping the power relays over for the roof? There’s two of them i understand & i think they’re interchangeable :?
Have you hooked it up to a code reader? That could shed some light on what’s wrong.
Rob

I now claim my mystery prize :P
Rob
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e89 Sdrive 20i, plenty of mumbo & good economy-the thinking bears z4
e89 Sdrive 30i, this ones busted, pass me another...
e85 3.0si sold

flybobbie
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Roof fault

Post by flybobbie » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:56 pm

Very clever, yes it turned out to be a relay.
But what threw me was the fact the boot would rise and fall so just assumed, looking at the wiring diagram that each relay would switch motor one way or the other, so they were fine.
When the boot was fully open pump would stop.
The positive and negative of the coils are connected to the module, rather than negatives to body earth.
So the top module can drive the relays for the boot, but then decide not to lift the roof.
Had the relays apart and the contacts look ok.
The code reader gave 4-5 switch errors, in red with A codes.

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Nictrix
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Roof fault

Post by Nictrix » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:44 am

Excellent you got it fixed.
Did someone not post on here in the last year about these relays? It might have been a link to a German forum.
E89 2014 35i M Sport Black with Black leather :)

flybobbie
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Roof fault

Post by flybobbie » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:39 pm

I have seen a very long discussion on a German site regarding the Hall switches.

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Smartbear
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Roof fault

Post by Smartbear » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:24 pm

flybobbie wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:39 pm I have seen a very long discussion on a German site regarding the Hall switches.
Did they think the cracking issue seems to effect the functionality of them? :?
Rob
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e89 Sdrive 20i, plenty of mumbo & good economy-the thinking bears z4
e89 Sdrive 30i, this ones busted, pass me another...
e85 3.0si sold

Adil_3
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Roof fault

Post by Adil_3 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:33 pm

GLAD YOU GOT IT SORTED !!!
Slightly going to gloat and repost my comment down below :D

Adil_3 wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:16 pm Upon first reading this i noticed you said you mashed around with the buttons and it seemed to have closed once you got home and one part of the operation works and the other doesnt. Ive had a roof motor and had an issue similar to where the roof would get stuck half way but would close just fine. Just a quick check and its a cheap one at that,

Where the roof motor is located in the boot are two orange relays. One relay controls the down operation and the other the close operation. Intitially swap the two relays around and try pressing the roof see what happens in my case swapped the relays around roof went down didnt go back up swapped them back and roof went up. Ordered two new relays off bmw 20 pounds a pop in it goes all sorted.

Previous to this my roof motor blew, and i assume this was the culprit to it, over heating roof motor mixed with hydraulics and a faulty relay. Doesnt really harm to try if the roof motor seems okay and the micro switches are good also !

flybobbie
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Roof fault

Post by flybobbie » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:54 pm

I initially didn't think the relays were a problem because looking at the circuit diagram the relays appear to be arranged to switch the pump forward and reverse, so to speak, as in 'H' arrangement for reversing a electric motor. So the boot would rise and fall.
But a pump doesn't really need to reverse, only the valves that control the cylinders need to switch, a bit like compressed air cylinders.
So only one relay no2 is needed to raise and lower the boot, with appropriate valve switching.
Failure of relay no1, must be stopping the roof cylinders from operating as the pump wasn't running.
In fact can't see why it would need the second relay. It only needs to turn the pump one way, the rest should be done by switching valves.
On the bench i can't find anything wrong with the relays, both have 77ohm coils and a zero resistance on the contacts and all move, whether inside or outside their cases. The only other possibility is inside the sockets they plug in to.
Not finding something actually faulty is bugging me.
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pump cct.jpg (53.46 KiB) Viewed 1202 times
Last edited by flybobbie on Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Smartbear
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Roof fault

Post by Smartbear » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:53 am

flybobbie wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:54 pm I initially didn't think the relays were a problem because looking at the circuit diagram the relays appear to be arranged to switch the pump forward and reverse, so to speak, as in 'H' arrangement for reversing a electric motor. So the boot would rise and fall.
But a pump doesn't really need to reverse, only the valves that control the cylinders need to switch, a bit like compressed air cylinders.
So only one relay no2 is needed to raise and lower the boot, with appropriate valve switching.
Failure of relay no1, must be stopping the roof cylinders from operating as the pump wasn't running.
In fact can't see why it would need the second relay. It only needs to turn the pump one way, the rest should be done by switching valves.
On the bench i can't find anything wrong withe the relays, both have 77ohm coils and a zero resistance on the contacts and all move, whether inside or outside their cases. The only other possibility is inside the sockets they plug in to.
Not finding something actually faulty is bugging me.
Hi, did you test across the down contacts as well as the up ones?
Rob
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e89 Sdrive 20i, plenty of mumbo & good economy-the thinking bears z4
e89 Sdrive 30i, this ones busted, pass me another...
e85 3.0si sold

flybobbie
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Roof fault

Post by flybobbie » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:32 am

Yes, every which way.

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