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FOR SALE Forum Z4MC's For Sale *Sticky*

Buying and selling Z4's (VEHICLE SALES ONLY) (private sales only, no traders)
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Post by -Tom- » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:56 pm

MrPT wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:11 pm I’d do whatever you want to do with it, since you are kindly volunteering your time. :thumbsup:

Adding hyperlinks and keeping just a summary would get my vote. Adding roadsters too, but I appreciate that’s quite a bit more work.

Wouldn’t it then just make sense to have a separate M section in the cars for sale section ... and each title just include the price and mileage ? :fuelfire:
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Post by Jembo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:18 am

10-12 year old cars... there is so much condition/history difference between 2 identically specc’d cars it belies belief, yet both will be priced close to each other.

The ‘dogs’ will just sit there, the rare combo minters are normally snapped up, especially Forum owned cars with a long audit trail showing care & history. Bought mine partly as has a history documented here since 16k... were I ever to sell this forum remains an independent & invaluable reference almost second to none of its real history...

Possibly in the future, the mods may create an index of traceable history of Forum cars, where the current owner (& the owner alone) can link threads of how they’ve cared for their cars, the issues which have been fixed & love they’ve lavished on them without comments from other members
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Post by flimper » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:27 am

Good idea that about having threads dedicated to cars throughout their different owners and lifetime
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Post by Simon 3.2M » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:02 am

flimper wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:27 am Good idea that about having threads dedicated to cars throughout their different owners and lifetime
That could be a very good idea but here is a question, what about if you self service the car? The Indy did my bearing shells and valve clearances however, I have replaced the following; front discs and pads, diff and gearbox oils, radiator, thermostat, coolant, all belts and pulleys, updated the satnav and disc, 4 wheel alignment, aircon re-gas, vibra techniques engine mounts and full machine polish, I will be replacing the RTAB and spark plugs in the coming weeks. Other than the major works none of it will be stamped in the book, I have recepts for the parts but will that be irrelivant come sale time and not add to the value?
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Post by Jembo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:39 am

Simon 3.2M wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:02 am
flimper wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:27 am Good idea that about having threads dedicated to cars throughout their different owners and lifetime
That could be a very good idea but here is a question, what about if you self service the car? The Indy did my bearing shells and valve clearances however, I have replaced the following; front discs and pads, diff and gearbox oils, radiator, thermostat, coolant, all belts and pulleys, updated the satnav and disc, 4 wheel alignment, aircon re-gas, vibra techniques engine mounts and full machine polish, I will be replacing the RTAB and spark plugs in the coming weeks. Other than the major works none of it will be stamped in the book, I have recepts for the parts but will that be irrelivant come sale time and not add to the value?
This is precisely my point & one I’ve raised before. If you DIY & evidence you know what you’re doing in a thread, that’s very valuable - though on the flip side I’ve experienced DIY spanner warriors who’ve left cross threaded nuts, snapped water pump bolts, spark plugs that have to be helicoiled, wrong oils, incorrectly torqued suspension, wrong parts...

I’ve taken the decision that anything minor I do I’ll make a thread (eg GROM instal), so there’s clear evidence how I’ve gone about it & the quality of what’s been done behind the scenes. All other more serious work has been done by highly reputable garages (Brystones / ETA Motorsport etc...) or by highly respected forum members (eg srhutch for cruise control)

Anyone ever lucky enough to acquire my car will have all this reference data to fall back on... not just the paperwork I’ll provide & on an 11 year old chariot is the differentiator.
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Post by tomscott » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:11 am

Exactly there have been many threads on self service vs documented history and it hangs in a balance of where the car is in its life.

If its a low milage car thats good money then I would be inclined to say keep the history documented by a specialist. Interim oil changes etc are even better and I think something as simple as changing the oil is fine by a home mechanic.

Sort of the whole point of having a dealer or a specialist because they do these things day in day out and your paying for a professional service that is to spec. Regardless of peoples views and opinions on stealers generally that makes it easy to identify how a car has been looked after over its life using proper tools parts and knowledge etc

Even if self service is documented on a forum trying to establish your level of skill is a different matter to a potential buyer. 90% of people buying these cars wont know what they are doing, me included. How would I know a home mechanic has done everything to spec and has put things back together properly just take their word for it?

I think if its a high milage car, possibly more of a project and something that is a keeper then its a different matter. But when it comes to selling the car you really narrow the amount of potential buyers.

Really the difference between how much a car is worth is its condition, mileage and history. If that history isnt documented by a garage then I wouldn't be inclined to buy it.

If the home mechnic had been a master mechanic or owns a garage its a different matter but how do you prove to a buyer thats your credential.

Many times cars that are for sale have inspection II ticked in the book by some back street garage. What exactly have they done but put a tick in the box? They probably have just done a normal minor service not the specified service by BMW.

Its the gamble you take, in all honesty even if the valve clearances are slightly out of spec the likelyhood of it doing serious damage is minimal and you could get an INS II done at any time to give piece of mind. But essentially the cars history is out of sync and good history is one of three things that makes a good car. Idealy you want all three to line up and unfortunately its getting very difficult to find. The worry is would the next buyer be willing to bat the same eye.

Just bought a 911 and it has 15k worth of history with it every single bill, mot etc and the file is the size of a novel. Thats the sort of documentation I expect on a car of this caliber yet very few Z4Ms have.

The Z4M market is very different to the porsche market. Dogs are priced accordingly and cars with the same milage and year can have wild price differences. There have been some fairly major issues that are well documented and probably means buyers are more clued up. Because boxsters caymans and 911s shared 90% of their parts they needed to be looked after similarly and the arrangement of the car means certain things are quite expensive in comparison to a traditional car. Funnily enough most boxsters and caymans fall into the same trap with poor history and just a quick search will show 5-6k differences between very similar cars on paper.

The S54 on the other hand for the kind of caliber has seen fairly minor issues in comparison and because the Z4M coupe sold in such small numbers you dont really have much choice so almost every car is in a similar price position but the history, condition and milage can vary a huge amount. The nice thing about the Z is that looking after it is relitevely cheap, having the major things done like bearings, mounts vanos wont cost much more than 2k. On a 911 just having the hoses replaced costs £1100 because you have to drop the sub frame. The hoses are like £30 each and I think there is 8 the rest is labour so bills add up quickly.

TBH I gave up looking for another Z4M, couldnt find what I was looking for. I would love another but finding a car that is worth the money, the right colour combo and ticks the boxes is very hard unless you are willing to pay the top end of the market.

With that in mind its a risky time to be buying top end of the market 25-30k, feels like the bottom could drop out with what is going on in the climate right now.

Obviously just my opinion.

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Post by Simon 3.2M » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:36 am

Good words Tom, and as always, sound advice and a balanced view. I'm an ex RAF aircraft technician so I know my car is sorted and the specialist jobs ie bearing shells will be done by a reputable Indy for the peace of mind it brings.

As for where the market is heading, it certainly has slowed but that may also be due to the fact that Christmas, to many people, isn't too far away and they may be reluctant to spend decent sums of money on a "toy" Your comments on the Porsche maintenance costs are very interesting, I was thinking a Boxster S may be my next car but it does seem prices are far higher which is definitely something that needs to be factored into the equation!
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Post by tomscott » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:00 pm

Simon 3.2M wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:36 am Good words Tom, and as always, sound advice and a balanced view. I'm an ex RAF aircraft technician so I know my car is sorted and the specialist jobs ie bearing shells will be done by a reputable Indy for the peace of mind it brings.

As for where the market is heading, it certainly has slowed but that may also be due to the fact that Christmas, to many people, isn't too far away and they may be reluctant to spend decent sums of money on a "toy" Your comments on the Porsche maintenance costs are very interesting, I was thinking a Boxster S may be my next car but it does seem prices are far higher which is definitely something that needs to be factored into the equation!
TBH the whole market is slowing not just M, the prices of Porsches are dropping after this huge uplift of prices year on year, New car sales are down significantly. I think its the unknown about brexit and people are preparing for the worst. Purchases like high performance cars are always put to the bottom of the pile.

I wouldn't let it put you off buying a Porsche just in my experience they cost more to look after in terms of jobs needed rather than maintenance whereas the Ms seem to be more robust. Many people forget that although the boxster and Cayman are cheaper the 986 and 987 are 90% based on the 911 and the engine is the so the same applies.

Because of their design for example the radiators are in the front right and left air scoops and tend to rot as leaves and debris get it. They last roughly 6-8 years depending on conditions. The aircon (unlike other cars as its on by default) doesnt go through traditional means like a re gas, if its not ice cold it generally means there is a leak and the condensers are the usual suspect £500 for a pair without fitting.

Emphasises the point further that documentation of what the car has had done brings piece of mind as the cost can mount significantly with only a few issues.

The M seems to be far more robust in terms of failures, just the usual stuff. The only anomaly with the Ms is the cost to service which is a bit more than most cars in the same bracket.

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Post by jimmybell » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:31 pm

tomscott wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:00 pm
TBH the whole market is slowing not just M, the prices of Porsches are dropping after this huge uplift of prices year on year, New car sales are down significantly.
do you have evidence of this? not refuting, genuinely interested.

i'm aware that's the case on a good chunk of the new car market.
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Post by tomscott » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:38 pm

One for example is 981 Spyder prices this time last year they were all 85-100k with a few over the 100k mark. Now you can get sub 10k mile cars for low 70ks quite a drop in a short space of time. Same with the 997.2 market quite a lot in the low 40s now.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified ... asc&page=1

This one was for sale last Christmas at Porsche center chester for £105k its only got 1000 miles and it has depreciated at a dealer level to £85k, 20k loss at dealer prices.

I think one of the issue is people arent stupid, making low volume cars for the sake of it and only specific few can get hold of them. For example the older generation RS cars were made in such low volumes between the 70s-late 80s, through the 90s-10s there have been thousands of these cars produced but sold as low production runs. When you add it up you can see whats happening. A lot more to choose from now and the market may well be saturating to the point they have plateaued.

GTS models for example is purely a marketing exercise. The cars are essentially the same but have a slightly less restricted exhaust for 10hp ish more then they spec the cars with packs that would cost more on a normal car spec per spec, couple of GTS badges and an alcantara interior and thats about it.

Not really a huge difference but they hold a huge premium.
Last edited by tomscott on Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by jimmybell » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:45 pm

They are a nice car, the spyder.

I'm interested to see what the new GT4 is like.. if it has the GT3 engine... (the one criticism of the old gt4/spyder was the engine being the 'average' 911 lump).
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Post by tomscott » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:49 pm

I think that 3.8 is a really great engine and in a low weight car im sure is a stonker. My dad has it in his 991 and with the PDK is really great to drive on the edge and as a cruiser. In sport plus its a bit of an animal. Reduce the weight by 2-300kgs and im sure its awesome in the GT4/spider.

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Post by earthdweller » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:19 pm

tomscott wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:11 am
good points well put
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Post by earthdweller » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:24 pm

earthdweller wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:19 pm
tomscott wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:11 am
good points well put
I agree with you Tom

It really is a minefield out there


For me in this order

1. a full bmw history ( on time and with all supporting docs, including anything done outside the network )

2. BMW/ respected Indy ( as above )

3. Back street garage/self service history ... the risky option imo

But above all condition, condition, condition

These are old cars now .. most were lightly serviced in their younger years, I can forgive that if they have been looked after in the later years
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Post by earthdweller » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:32 pm

jimmybell wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:31 pm
tomscott wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:00 pm
TBH the whole market is slowing not just M, the prices of Porsches are dropping after this huge uplift of prices year on year, New car sales are down significantly.
do you have evidence of this? not refuting, genuinely interested.

i'm aware that's the case on a good chunk of the new car market.
I think the new car market and the classic market has stalled

My local bmw dealer had a row of pre reg M2’s and M4’s outside at significant savings the other day

Wasn’t there a prestige classic at auction at Silverstone last month where only 30% of the cars hit their reserves ?
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