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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Discuss problems you have had or are having with your Z4
mjennings23
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by mjennings23 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:44 pm

R60BBA wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:34 pm
mjennings23 wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:37 pm
R60BBA wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:43 pm Just got in my car and noticed that the bite of the EBC Redstuff pads when cold aren’t as good as stock.

Perhaps this is because of their ceramic compound?
Let me know how you get on with these, I've read some advice that the Redstuff is designed for bigger cars, and Yellowstuff is more often recommended for the Z4.

Currently between the Yellowstuff or Mintex M1144 decision myself so would be good to get some input.
I’ve had no issues with the Redstuff pads. I’d say the braking/stopping power is the same as stock however the Redstufff last a lot longer (less susceptibile to fade).

Minor issues: I’ve noticed that I have to notch my handbrake a little bit higher for it to bite and sometimes the offside front disc makes a squeaking noise. Not too fussed or concerned about this as apparently new discs can squeak until they are fully bedded in.

Which pads did you go for in the end?
Got a set of yellowstuff at home waiting for a decent day to fit, along with some ATE TYP200 fluid. They were significantly cheaper than any alternatives from Mintex, Performance Friction etc so figured it's no harm. All the negative reviews seem to be from years back anyway so we shall see how it goes.

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R60BBA
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by R60BBA » Wed May 09, 2018 11:40 pm

Went back to BMS for some Dot 5 fluid and a general pre-roadtrip/Nurburgring inspection.

The Zed is mint according to Kev and Lee 8)
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Current: 2002 E46 M3
Current: 2004 R53 Cooper S
Current: 2005 997 Carrera S
Gone: 1998 E31 840Ci Sport
Gone: 2007 Z4 E86 3.0Si Sport
Gone: 2001 Z3 E36/7 2.2i San Remo Individual
Gone: 2015 F21 116d M Sport
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R60BBA
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by R60BBA » Wed May 16, 2018 8:03 am

Another quick update.

Just did 2 laps at the Nordschleife yesterday and noticed that in the 1st lap I got brake fade after just 6 mins of driving and by around 8 mins I had brake judder.

After cooling her down, in the 2nd lap I decided to try and drive off the brakes as much as possible and instead use the gears (where appropriate). However I still noticed brake fade after about 7 mins of driving and got brake judder right at the end.

I was a bit disappointed but hey ho I still enjoyed driving the car on the Nurburgring!
Current: 2002 E46 M3
Current: 2004 R53 Cooper S
Current: 2005 997 Carrera S
Gone: 1998 E31 840Ci Sport
Gone: 2007 Z4 E86 3.0Si Sport
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Gone: 2015 F21 116d M Sport
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Ed Doe
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by Ed Doe » Mon May 28, 2018 3:21 pm

Describe 'brake fade'?

If you're just getting judder that's normal and you'll get through that by braking harder.

I'd suspect what's happening is you're dragging the brakes too much, which (and don't take this the wrong way) is normal for someone relatively new to track driving, or when driving on a circuit you don't know. You're essentially approaching with more caution, so you're braking earlier than necessary. You'll therefore be on the brake pedal for longer periods, but using less peak brake force, which means you're putting the same heat into the brakes, but over longer periods, and with shorter periods off the brakes to let them cool. Does that make any sense?

I've done a few trackdays previously with completely OEM discs and pads and had no issues with brakes other than the pedal going marginally longer, which is to be expected. I had brake judder during the first couple of sessions, but this went as I gained confidence and started using the brakes harder and later.

Just my tuppence worth - I'm jolly jealous of your ring trip though - did you take any videos/photos? Dead keen to get out there at some point!
Carbon Black '07 M Coupe: Intrax 1k2 Coilovers, AP-Racing, Raybestos ST45s, Tillets, Schroth, Vibratechnic, Apex EC7, Strongstrut, Eventuri, H&S, RTD, 4.1FD :evil:
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R60BBA
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by R60BBA » Mon May 28, 2018 5:07 pm

Ed Doe wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 3:21 pm Describe 'brake fade'?

If you're just getting judder that's normal and you'll get through that by braking harder.

I'd suspect what's happening is you're dragging the brakes too much, which (and don't take this the wrong way) is normal for someone relatively new to track driving, or when driving on a circuit you don't know. You're essentially approaching with more caution, so you're braking earlier than necessary. You'll therefore be on the brake pedal for longer periods, but using less peak brake force, which means you're putting the same heat into the brakes, but over longer periods, and with shorter periods off the brakes to let them cool. Does that make any sense?

I've done a few trackdays previously with completely OEM discs and pads and had no issues with brakes other than the pedal going marginally longer, which is to be expected. I had brake judder during the first couple of sessions, but this went as I gained confidence and started using the brakes harder and later.

Just my tuppence worth - I'm jolly jealous of your ring trip though - did you take any videos/photos? Dead keen to get out there at some point!
I've mentioned this to others and they have said more or less as yourself. The only reason I mentioned it on here is because when I took my 116D to the Ring in 2015, I did two laps with stock brakes and no issues whatsoever. I guess it's just a different ball game with higher horsepower vehicles. (I still managed to get under 10 mins on my 4th ever lap of the Nordschleife so was pleased overall).

I took loads of photos and I also made a short film.

Enjoy: https://youtu.be/y0ymv8jOC0Y
Current: 2002 E46 M3
Current: 2004 R53 Cooper S
Current: 2005 997 Carrera S
Gone: 1998 E31 840Ci Sport
Gone: 2007 Z4 E86 3.0Si Sport
Gone: 2001 Z3 E36/7 2.2i San Remo Individual
Gone: 2015 F21 116d M Sport
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Ed Doe
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by Ed Doe » Mon May 28, 2018 9:58 pm

I'd agree - 116d is a different thing to a coupe - it'll likely be over braked for the power :lol:

Good effort on the sub-10 - I'll watch the vid now :)
Carbon Black '07 M Coupe: Intrax 1k2 Coilovers, AP-Racing, Raybestos ST45s, Tillets, Schroth, Vibratechnic, Apex EC7, Strongstrut, Eventuri, H&S, RTD, 4.1FD :evil:
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R60BBA
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by R60BBA » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:19 pm

Does anybody know what this noise is?

https://youtu.be/r1J4fmRyVBI
Current: 2002 E46 M3
Current: 2004 R53 Cooper S
Current: 2005 997 Carrera S
Gone: 1998 E31 840Ci Sport
Gone: 2007 Z4 E86 3.0Si Sport
Gone: 2001 Z3 E36/7 2.2i San Remo Individual
Gone: 2015 F21 116d M Sport
Gone: 2012 A3 Sportback 1.2TFSI

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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by Monkeydonkeyratmagic » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:44 pm

If you mean that irritating squeak.

Possibly a warped disc but most likely a bushing about to fail.

If you stop the car, stand on the sill and bounce does it still squeak?
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z4pilot
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by z4pilot » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:37 am

Does it stop if you apply the brakes?
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R60BBA
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by R60BBA » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:12 pm

z4pilot wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:37 am Does it stop if you apply the brakes?
Yes the noise goes away when applying the brakes. Any idea?
Current: 2002 E46 M3
Current: 2004 R53 Cooper S
Current: 2005 997 Carrera S
Gone: 1998 E31 840Ci Sport
Gone: 2007 Z4 E86 3.0Si Sport
Gone: 2001 Z3 E36/7 2.2i San Remo Individual
Gone: 2015 F21 116d M Sport
Gone: 2012 A3 Sportback 1.2TFSI

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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by hopz121 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:55 pm

Warped disc or possibly handbrake shoes if coming from the rear?

Do you get any judder through pedal?

What was the last thing you did before it started squeaking? Is this after a track day or something?

Sticking caliper possibly?
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R60BBA
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by R60BBA » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:55 pm

hopz121 wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:55 pm Warped disc or possibly handbrake shoes if coming from the rear?

Do you get any judder through pedal?

What was the last thing you did before it started squeaking? Is this after a track day or something?

Sticking caliper possibly?
The discs are only 3,000 miles old (as are pads) so can’t be warped.

I don’t get any brake judder. (Had some during my 2 laps of the Nurburgring but none before and none since).

The noise started about 1.5 months ago but has progressively gotten worse. The noise seems to only occur when the brakes are warm, if they are cold I don’t get the noise.

I have noticed that I have to pull my handbrake higher for it to work, but I don’t know if this is related.

The noise also occurs when I am turning at slow speeds (for example when parking in a car park).

Since the development of the noise many people stare, which is quite embarrassing as they are staring for the wrong reason.

Any ideas or solutions would be much appreciated.
Current: 2002 E46 M3
Current: 2004 R53 Cooper S
Current: 2005 997 Carrera S
Gone: 1998 E31 840Ci Sport
Gone: 2007 Z4 E86 3.0Si Sport
Gone: 2001 Z3 E36/7 2.2i San Remo Individual
Gone: 2015 F21 116d M Sport
Gone: 2012 A3 Sportback 1.2TFSI

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R60BBA
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by R60BBA » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:17 pm

Monkeydonkeyratmagic wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:44 pm If you mean that irritating squeak.

Possibly a warped disc but most likely a bushing about to fail.

If you stop the car, stand on the sill and bounce does it still squeak?
Got my mum to stand on the drivers door sill and the noise appeared - check the link

https://youtu.be/IzCLyPBhJpM
Current: 2002 E46 M3
Current: 2004 R53 Cooper S
Current: 2005 997 Carrera S
Gone: 1998 E31 840Ci Sport
Gone: 2007 Z4 E86 3.0Si Sport
Gone: 2001 Z3 E36/7 2.2i San Remo Individual
Gone: 2015 F21 116d M Sport
Gone: 2012 A3 Sportback 1.2TFSI

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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by PDJ » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:25 pm

R60BBA wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:55 pm The discs are only 3,000 miles old (as are pads) so can’t be warped.
Yes it can be

Discs warp or run out of true call it what you like is mostly caused by heat which you had plenty of on your first laps of the Nordschleife ring for a lump of metal to be warmed up to a point where it becomes malleable and then cool down the same shape it needs no external forces applied to it and cooled evenly.

If you stopped with hot discs you have the ability to cool then unevenly just by having the brake pads absorbing some heat or retaining some heat as there is more local heat, the thing to do is drive like miss Daisy until everything is cooled off then stop.

When stopped if you put the handbrake on with hot rear discs you can make the read handbrake drums go oval.

Another thing excessive heat can do with hot discs when stopped is transfer heat into the pads then the pistons and then the fluid so with next to no cooling the temp of the fluid goes up and potentially above the opperating temp for the fluid.

When I was track daying my Westfield 255BHP and 510kgs fuelled I saw loads of people do the above one young lad in a new Porsche parked next to me and the heat coming from the car was unbearable so helped he preserve his brakes and bank balance turned out it the Porsche was his girlfriends he had something more expensive but was great full of the advice.

Hope that makes sense if not other may explain it better. (engineer not a typist)

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R60BBA
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Hard braking - Keeping her straight

Post by R60BBA » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:31 pm

The noise occurred 3 weeks before my trip to the Ring...

(I’m fully aware of problems that are associated with not letting discs cool down before stopping after hard run or applying the handbrake for that matter...)

Please check the link, it looks like the pads rubbing on the disc is the culprit.

However I don’t know how to fix this?
Current: 2002 E46 M3
Current: 2004 R53 Cooper S
Current: 2005 997 Carrera S
Gone: 1998 E31 840Ci Sport
Gone: 2007 Z4 E86 3.0Si Sport
Gone: 2001 Z3 E36/7 2.2i San Remo Individual
Gone: 2015 F21 116d M Sport
Gone: 2012 A3 Sportback 1.2TFSI

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