Not joined yet? Register for free and enjoy features such as alerts, private messaging and viewing latest posts and topics.
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
-
- Newbie
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:51 pm
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
Hello, some picture with the bumper
- Liam22
- Member
- Posts: 645
- Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:28 pm
- Location: Herts/Cambs
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
OK. It's a beautiful thing. I'm in!
Add me to the list.
Add me to the list.
- Shawn_Trn
- Newbie
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:55 pm
- Location: Torun, Poland
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
Looks pro. So what's the final price ?
Second thing - what about further - inside the engine bay - if someone has aftermarket intake - like K&N or AFE.
Do you also plan to develop custom box ? so the filter does not absorb hot air from engine/ exhaust ?
Second thing - what about further - inside the engine bay - if someone has aftermarket intake - like K&N or AFE.
Do you also plan to develop custom box ? so the filter does not absorb hot air from engine/ exhaust ?
- DSGRNMCM
- Member
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:08 pm
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
Bump
E86 Z4m Coupe - Titan Silver, Stubby, Sun protection, Eibach springs, LED interior lights, CDV delete, Badge delete, Pipercross, Exhaust bypass
F11 520d, E46 328i, E91 320d, F21 120d, E46 318ti
Mk VI GTD DSG (Daily Hack)
F11 520d, E46 328i, E91 320d, F21 120d, E46 318ti
Mk VI GTD DSG (Daily Hack)
- Liam22
- Member
- Posts: 645
- Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:28 pm
- Location: Herts/Cambs
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
The OEM airbox does not really absorb heat. After 40 minutes of racing at Silverstone in August, inlet air temp averages ambient temp. It was 22ºC that day, peak inlet air temp was 25ºC at the slowest part of the circuit.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1074
- Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:17 pm
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
Very interesting read but dont get carried away expecting great gains in performance. As an old boy I have played around with induction arrangements on a host of old carb cars (yes in the days before injection). Mostly it just increased induction noise and made me think car was running faster but certainly getting colder air into your engine is better than hot air. Injection cars are a different matter and manufacturers go to great lengths in designing engines (with emission constraints of course) so a tweak here and there can lead to problems further down the line. This mod may work but my betting is that increased noise will be the primary outcome and of course if insurance companies spot this after an accident they are likely to refuse any claim.
- Ewazix
- Lifer
- Posts: 4721
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 5:30 pm
- Location: Somerset
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
I would 100% agree with the above. Also expecting to make any noticeable gains in power without changing the map as claimed, isn't technically possible. The map parameters only allow a very limited increase in fuelling before sensors start throwing codes and retarding to protect the engine. The variations in the map are there to allow for different fuel, ambient air temperature/pressure fluctuations and wear in service parts. Technically you can exploit most of the available power increase in any stock map with a good service, some decent fuel and a cold day.Mike6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:17 pm Very interesting read but dont get carried away expecting great gains in performance. As an old boy I have played around with induction arrangements on a host of old carb cars (yes in the days before injection). Mostly it just increased induction noise and made me think car was running faster but certainly getting colder air into your engine is better than hot air. Injection cars are a different matter and manufacturers go to great lengths in designing engines (with emission constraints of course) so a tweak here and there can lead to problems further down the line. This mod may work but my betting is that increased noise will be the primary outcome and of course if insurance companies spot this after an accident they are likely to refuse any claim.
But it will look good
2003 2.5 SE, low miles, Sterling Grey, 108's & Eagles, no stubby here! Unmolested.
2018 Cooper S Countryman
Fiesta Ecoboost
2018 Cooper S Countryman
Fiesta Ecoboost
- Shawn_Trn
- Newbie
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:55 pm
- Location: Torun, Poland
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
True, but I don't have OEM anymore
- Attachments
-
- WP_20161027_003.jpg (114.48 KiB) Viewed 1748 times
-
- Newbie
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:51 pm
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
Thank you Liam, I have add you. We wait for 3 other people now. Were are 5.
Thank you it is hundreds of hours of work to obtain this result (cardboard prototyping, first piece in fiberglass, 3d scanning and retouching, research ...). Your remark makes me very happy.
At the moment, the best price I got from printers is 240€. But for that we still need 3 people more. It is possible to print it in a less efficient material for 200 € but I think it would be stupid, tell me what you think.
I planed to develop custom box for the engine bay but only for the Karbonius. I'm going to buy one of this airbox, it is necessary for me to have the part to develop a part that fits perfectly. That is why I can't do this job for each diffents configuration.
"yannguigui" have one of this part on his 3.0i with compressor, you can read his feeling here :
http://www.bmwz3club.fr/forum/viewtopic ... &start=120
Hey Mike, I respect your point of view. I'm from the old school carburetor area too... not on car but on bike. And yes changing carburetor, air box and the air filter make a big big difference.Mike6 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:17 pm Very interesting read but dont get carried away expecting great gains in performance. As an old boy I have played around with induction arrangements on a host of old carb cars (yes in the days before injection). Mostly it just increased induction noise and made me think car was running faster but certainly getting colder air into your engine is better than hot air. Injection cars are a different matter and manufacturers go to great lengths in designing engines (with emission constraints of course) so a tweak here and there can lead to problems further down the line. This mod may work but my betting is that increased noise will be the primary outcome and of course if insurance companies spot this after an accident they are likely to refuse any claim.
You speak about emission constraints... in 2002? My car for exemple, 437gr/Co2/km..
The original part has been designed to allow the car to run in all conditions, rain, mud, dust. That's all.
For the insurance company no problem since no gain in power? It's not that?
I'm kidding of course, it's a serious point.
I don't know how it works with you but in France, 5% more power is allowed (they estimate that this is a possible deviation linked to the manufacture of the car). So for example a 2.5si can legally do 229hp, a 3.0i can legally do 242hp, a 3.0si can legally do 278hp etc...
That's enough, we all know that our engines never output the powers announced by the manufacturer
I think that before being so categorical you should read these few lines posted on this same thread:
Gazzzz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:14 am
If you have some doupt ask you this simple questions:
- Why making a hole on the front bumper on a M3 CSL?
-On an M5 e60, using air ram and an exhaust you optain nearly +30hp...
-You can find many video showing that a sports air filter increases performance.. why?
- If you obstruct half of your air filter, will your car be slower?
- Why when Formula 1 car were Naturally aspirated engine, the rules limited the size of the air intake?
- Why so big??
A funny video here, see the size of this air intake for this merecedes. It produce more than 500bhp from a 2.9 liters v6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc5ze0B0BWc
Thank you Ewazik, yes of course it is better with remap. But your OEM sensor will adjust. Your car is more capable than a "very limited increase in fuelling"...Ewazix wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:44 pm
I would 100% agree with the above. Also expecting to make any noticeable gains in power without changing the map as claimed, isn't technically possible. The map parameters only allow a very limited increase in fuelling before sensors start throwing codes and retarding to protect the engine. The variations in the map are there to allow for different fuel, ambient air temperature/pressure fluctuations and wear in service parts. Technically you can exploit most of the available power increase in any stock map with a good service, some decent fuel and a cold day.
But it will look good
Actually is suppose that your car works at level 0 (next to the sea for example), it also works at the top of mont blanc (4696m)?
It starts at -20 °?
Will it stop if it's + 55 °?
It make a verry big difference in your engine management, and your car do this itself.
Just for information, NA engine loses around 1% every 100m... I'll let you do your research, at pikes peak for example. some cars lose 40% between the start line and the finish line.
- Ewazix
- Lifer
- Posts: 4721
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 5:30 pm
- Location: Somerset
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
Gazzzz,
Neither of us actually know how much latitude there is to exploit in the stock map but if your references to Pikes Peak engines losing 40% of power at altitude is supposed to imply that a stock map could cope with that (so has a huge reserve to tap in to) is obviously wrong. References to F1 cars are not relevant since they are not constrained by a stock map. I would at least consider mapping to get the best from this beautifully engineered project.
The proof of the pudding will be real world high speed runs and we all look forward to the results, good work
Neither of us actually know how much latitude there is to exploit in the stock map but if your references to Pikes Peak engines losing 40% of power at altitude is supposed to imply that a stock map could cope with that (so has a huge reserve to tap in to) is obviously wrong. References to F1 cars are not relevant since they are not constrained by a stock map. I would at least consider mapping to get the best from this beautifully engineered project.
The proof of the pudding will be real world high speed runs and we all look forward to the results, good work
2003 2.5 SE, low miles, Sterling Grey, 108's & Eagles, no stubby here! Unmolested.
2018 Cooper S Countryman
Fiesta Ecoboost
2018 Cooper S Countryman
Fiesta Ecoboost
- Shawn_Trn
- Newbie
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:55 pm
- Location: Torun, Poland
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
In my view running a two dyno (without and with new force intake) would be a must. Numbers don't lie
In my case it's more complex - I would need to make a direct blow into the K&N filter (along with constructing a heat cover), otherwise don't think much gain is achieved (like AFE filters being separated completely due to heat shield).
Question regarding ECU being able to adapt more fuel to increased air delivery is appropriate (either can adapt or remap is needed). Like using 98 octane comparing to 95 , if you don't have a map ready for this there should not be any gain ,right ?
In my case it's more complex - I would need to make a direct blow into the K&N filter (along with constructing a heat cover), otherwise don't think much gain is achieved (like AFE filters being separated completely due to heat shield).
Question regarding ECU being able to adapt more fuel to increased air delivery is appropriate (either can adapt or remap is needed). Like using 98 octane comparing to 95 , if you don't have a map ready for this there should not be any gain ,right ?
- Liam22
- Member
- Posts: 645
- Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:28 pm
- Location: Herts/Cambs
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
Take a look at how many sensors the N52 engine has
https://www.e90post.com/forums/attachme ... 1488747614
Modern engines are hugely adaptive, although mostly optimised for degraded conditions, not enhanced conditions. Mass air flow sensors directly control fuelling - how many reports of engines running better on cold days?
So the question is, can an optimised air intake help the engine suck more air? Standing still on a dyno - no chance. At >100mph - perhaps. So a dyno test will prove nothing. Whether it works or not will be down to high speed acceleration tests, or by comparing top speeds achieved on a track.
https://www.e90post.com/forums/attachme ... 1488747614
Modern engines are hugely adaptive, although mostly optimised for degraded conditions, not enhanced conditions. Mass air flow sensors directly control fuelling - how many reports of engines running better on cold days?
So the question is, can an optimised air intake help the engine suck more air? Standing still on a dyno - no chance. At >100mph - perhaps. So a dyno test will prove nothing. Whether it works or not will be down to high speed acceleration tests, or by comparing top speeds achieved on a track.
- ph001
- Lifer
- Posts: 3870
- Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:53 pm
- Location: N. Yorkshire.
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
Quite right. Also, in terms of the sensors - the one that concerns me most is the MAP sensor (manifold absolute pressure, or Differential Pressure Sensor as BMW call it). The E86/E86 ECU oem mapping has zero ability to manage any positive pressure in the inlet manifold that is above atmospheric. If there is genuine 'boost' in the inlet manifold due to air ram effect then I would expect you would get an engine management light on due to MAP sensor values being out of range.Liam22 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:07 pm So the question is, can an optimised air intake help the engine suck more air? Standing still on a dyno - no chance. At >100mph - perhaps. So a dyno test will prove nothing. Whether it works or not will be down to high speed acceleration tests, or by comparing top speeds achieved on a track.
Quote from the e90post link in above post...
"Differential Pressure Sensor
The differential pressure sensor is located
at the rear of the intake manifold.
The sensor is piezo-electric and provides
the ECM with information about the pressure in the intake manifold.
The piezo element converts pressure
pulses into electrical signals. The ECM
supplies the sensor with the power and
ground supply"
I do love the engineering that has gone into this- maybe it will have other benefits such as a great induction note. Water being pulled into the intake is a very real concern though.
-
- Newbie
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:51 pm
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
Hello, many reaction here, that's cool!
As I said before, the "ram" effect is present well before 100mph. I had my wife drive (our renault clio with 90cv of pure power ), during this time (I was in the passenger seat) I passed the part through the window. An incredible volume of air engulfs from 50km/h (30mph).
OK, it's not the most scientific experiment in the world, but it's real life.
We have two different situation:
"Due to the elimination of the grill, it is more compact
than its predecessor and therefore decreases pressure loss in the intake tract."
Therefore the engineers at bmw also want to limit pressure loss.
"It supplies the ECM with an analog signal proportional to air mass"
The signal will increase in proportion to the amount of air, not to mention the temperatures (also detected by the HFM) which will also be more favorable.
The calculation of the AFR (ari fuel ratio) is made like that:
This calculation makes use of the following signals:
• Valve lift of intake valve from VVT (load acquisition)
• VANOS setting (load acquisition)
• Throttle setting (throttling)
• Intake air temperature (air density correction)
• Engine temperature (air density correction)
• Engine speed (cylinder charge)
• Intake manifold pressure (throttling correction)
• Ambient pressure (air density, altitude correction)
If I understand correctly what worries you, it is this line (sorry I'm french, it's sometimes difficult for me to understand you perfectly):
"Intake manifold pressure (throttling correction)"
That's it?
While waiting for your answer and to reassure you here is the 3.0si from a friend, he "will never go back".
one defect however, he noted a slight increase in consumption. He has only been using it for 1 month, let's wait and see if it's not the noise that makes him want to drive faster ...
thank you all, this subject is of a very good level and fascinating
Many thank for this documentation, I really agree with you. A dyno run isn't dynamic. So you are not going to benefit from the "ram effect".Liam22 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:07 pm Take a look at how many sensors the N52 engine has
https://www.e90post.com/forums/attachme ... 1488747614
Modern engines are hugely adaptive, although mostly optimised for degraded conditions, not enhanced conditions. Mass air flow sensors directly control fuelling - how many reports of engines running better on cold days?
So the question is, can an optimised air intake help the engine suck more air? Standing still on a dyno - no chance. At >100mph - perhaps. So a dyno test will prove nothing. Whether it works or not will be down to high speed acceleration tests, or by comparing top speeds achieved on a track.
As I said before, the "ram" effect is present well before 100mph. I had my wife drive (our renault clio with 90cv of pure power ), during this time (I was in the passenger seat) I passed the part through the window. An incredible volume of air engulfs from 50km/h (30mph).
OK, it's not the most scientific experiment in the world, but it's real life.
First, thank you for your argumentation. It's always a good thing to discuss technique.ph001 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:54 pm
Quite right. Also, in terms of the sensors - the one that concerns me most is the MAP sensor (manifold absolute pressure, or Differential Pressure Sensor as BMW call it). The E86/E86 ECU oem mapping has zero ability to manage any positive pressure in the inlet manifold that is above atmospheric. If there is genuine 'boost' in the inlet manifold due to air ram effect then I would expect you would get an engine management light on due to MAP sensor values being out of range.
We have two different situation:
- The first: Z4 using HFM (and MS45.1):
"Due to the elimination of the grill, it is more compact
than its predecessor and therefore decreases pressure loss in the intake tract."
Therefore the engineers at bmw also want to limit pressure loss.
"It supplies the ECM with an analog signal proportional to air mass"
The signal will increase in proportion to the amount of air, not to mention the temperatures (also detected by the HFM) which will also be more favorable.
- The seconde situation is for Z4 using HFM only for temperature, and with MSV70
The calculation of the AFR (ari fuel ratio) is made like that:
This calculation makes use of the following signals:
• Valve lift of intake valve from VVT (load acquisition)
• VANOS setting (load acquisition)
• Throttle setting (throttling)
• Intake air temperature (air density correction)
• Engine temperature (air density correction)
• Engine speed (cylinder charge)
• Intake manifold pressure (throttling correction)
• Ambient pressure (air density, altitude correction)
If I understand correctly what worries you, it is this line (sorry I'm french, it's sometimes difficult for me to understand you perfectly):
"Intake manifold pressure (throttling correction)"
That's it?
While waiting for your answer and to reassure you here is the 3.0si from a friend, he "will never go back".
one defect however, he noted a slight increase in consumption. He has only been using it for 1 month, let's wait and see if it's not the noise that makes him want to drive faster ...
thank you all, this subject is of a very good level and fascinating
- Shawn_Trn
- Newbie
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:55 pm
- Location: Torun, Poland
Forced admission for all Z4 e85/e86 (all engines)
Is it still on sale ?