For discussion...

[sars]

tiglon, I humbly apologise sir

[tiglon]

tiglon, I humbly apologise sir

I magnanimously accept

[Pondrew]

Well I am in for the market for a new car (again).
The weapon of choice is an Audrey, which have the best (!) double clutch autos of any manufacturer (VAG did invent them after all).
But I want a manual. These are proving difficult to find but of the few available they are much cheaper than the equivalent auto. So a win-win for me (until sale time).

I have had a few autos over the past few years; from a bloody awful CVT, a ZF6 (not a fan) to a ZF8, but never a DCG. I thought I wanted to try one, but they are still automatics, doesn't matter how many clutches they have. I just don't like automatics, except for those (now very rare thankfully) times of being stuck on the M25 for miles in stop-start traffic.

I presume once the EV fully takes over, there will be no need for a gearbox at all. Just 'twist and go'!

[B21]

Ahem its not an automatic its a double clutch gearbox..

Automatic being defined as a gearbox with multiple ratios operated without manual intervention with a torque converter..

Double clutch gearbox aka BMW DCT uses clutches not torque converter..

Obtuse but at one time important distinction..

there is a rather grey area in the definition here.
"Automated manual" would perhaps be the most accurate description of DCT.

The latest definition of automatic transmission is often stated as per your description, but without the mention of torque converter at the end, so it would include DCT.

You are both mistaken, according to OED, Automatic:
Of a machine, appliance, etc.: that does not require an operator; that works by itself under fixed conditions, with little or no direct human control. Thus a torque converter type or DCT/DSG typ is an automatic, because they require that little or no human control requirement.

and for Manual:
Of work, an action, a skill, etc.: of or relating to the hand or hands; done or performed with the hands; involving physical rather than mental actions.

and thus there can not be an automatic manual, because that is contradictory, an automated manual transmission however......

Sars,

Since this was a specific discussion about E89 and E85 cars my terminology was based on what BMW calls their transmissions ..not a generalised catch all definition…

So ZF6HP and ZF8HP are called auto gearboxes , the DCT is called a twin clutch gearbox and the SMG is called a manual gear box

[sars]

B21, If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck & quacks like a duck, it's a duck! You can call it a Mallard but it's still a duck

[B21]

B21, If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck & quacks like a duck, it's a duck! You can call it a Mallard but it's still a duck

Not if you were IBM….saw on the back of a 4341 ‘a bulk air moving device….I suspect you’d call it a fan….

[Pondrew]

If it's got two pedals (unless you're a nutter like Marcoose) then it's an automatic. Call it what you want but it's an automatic as there is no manual clutch.

Flappy paddles don't make a car a manual, they just make it a different automatic.

[Mr Tidy]

If it's got two pedals (unless you're a nutter like Marcoose) then it's an automatic. Call it what you want but it's an automatic as there is no manual clutch.

Exactly.

A manual needs 3 pedals. Anything else is some sort of Auto, whatever sub-division of Auto you choose to put it in!

[BMWZ4MC]

If it's got two pedals (unless you're a nutter like Marcoose) then it's an automatic. Call it what you want but it's an automatic as there is no manual clutch.

Flappy paddles don't make a car a manual, they just make it a different automatic.

What if it has three pedals but you use only two? In the past (and most often with hire cars), I’ve taken great pleasure in driving a manual car without using the clutch except when pulling away or coming to a stop.

And what about my wife’s Mercedes which has three pedals, the third being a foot-operated parking brake?

Not that I’m being difficult

[sars]

As one of us is being pedantic (because they have a DCT), another question is, do electric cars have automatic transmissions? My understanding is no (with a few notable exceptions), as they have fixed gearing and selecting reverse just spins the electric motor the other way

[Pondrew]

as they have fixed gearing and selecting reverse just spins the electric motor the other way

Wow. That must mean a Tesla can do 0-60 in 4 secs backwards!

[brillomaster]

As one of us is being pedantic (because they have a DCT), another question is, do electric cars have automatic transmissions? My understanding is no (with a few notable exceptions), as they have fixed gearing and selecting reverse just spins the electric motor the other way

im gonna say an EV has a transmission - but its neither automatic or manual. i'd just call it a fixed transmission.

[B21]

As one of us is being pedantic (because they have a DCT), another question is, do electric cars have automatic transmissions? My understanding is no (with a few notable exceptions), as they have fixed gearing and selecting reverse just spins the electric motor the other way

im gonna say an EV has a transmission - but its neither automatic or manual. i'd just call it a fixed transmission.

I think we should just say that all cars have transmissions and all Zeds have IC engines..that way it doesn't confuse anyone and everyone is happy

"A transmission (also called a gearbox) is a mechanical device which uses gears to change the speed or direction of rotation in a machine. Many transmissions have multiple gear ratios, but there are also transmissions that use a single fixed gear ratio"

If SARS can approve that we can all move on..

[sars]

It was not a question of whether electric cars have transmissions, they all do (I bet somewhere there is an exception of a direct drive vehicle), it is rather do we class them as an automatic? Pondrew, stated that if it has two pedals then it is an automatic, ergo electric cars are automatic, however, my assertion is that there is no method or requirement to change gear ratios, either with or without an operator, thus it is neither manual nor automatic!

Out of interest, Toyota have developed a simulated manual gearbox on an electric car to increase driver enjoyment and successfully they claim, all software driven

[Pondrew]

Out of interest, Toyota have developed a simulated manual gearbox on an electric car to increase driver enjoyment and successfully they claim, all software driven

They also spent millions developing the hydrogen powered car....that doesn't seem to have got them anywhere (literally).