Would you vote differently now?

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Another Brexit vote.

OUT
50
48%
IN
55
52%
 
Total votes: 105

rooha
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Would you vote differently now?

Post by rooha » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:30 pm

the really scary thing for the future is not whether we are in or out, whether we have trade deals or not etc etc etc. Just looks at the clowns who will be running the country .... do you trust a single one of them ( left or right) to be the architects of some glorious tomorrow for GB.

nah, me neither.

As I have always understood things there are faults with the EU ( major ones to be fair) but a lot of the things it is blamed for were done by successive UK governments eg chronic structural underinvestment, selling off national assets to foreign interests, allowing foreign companies to buy large parts of the UKs industry, screwing the NHS, messing up education, crippling the military and so on. Maggie stole the milk and crushed the miners; Gordon and Tony sold the gold (any anything the previous lot hadn't tied down) to buy votes and Cameron called that goddamn referendum with a 50/50 pass rate. The greatest achievement in British politics since 1973 is that somehow or other the two main parties have swindled the electorate into believing that everything is the fault of 'the other'.

The snowflake generation that has been called out here multiple times is nothing to with the UK or the EU as such. Its comes from an older generation that raised a largely sh***y generation. Hopefully their anger and self-righteous indignation can be put to better use than wiping our arses when we are in nursing homes, or voting for old socialists with stupid stupid hare-brained plans. Look to yourself when you sneer at them. I pity the poor bastards.

Fingers crossed it will all work out but I think its going to take some deus ex machina for that to happen. This tires and depresses me, I'm going back to looking at US politics and thanking god we arent living through that at least.

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Would you vote differently now?

Post by Vornwend » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:27 pm

Brexit was a solution in search of a problem. Now we have a problem in search of a solution :(

The problem with all this harking back to a so called golden era is that there are absolutely no facts to back it up. These are the actual facts: Britian has done far better in the EU than it ever did before it joined. Britain joined what was then the European Economic Community in 1973 as the sick man of Europe. By the late 1960s, France, West Germany and Italy — the three founder members closest in size to the UK — produced more per person than it did and the gap grew larger every year. Between 1958, when the EEC was set up, and Britain’s entry in 1973, gross domestic product per head rose 95 per cent in these three countries compared with only 50 per cent in Britain. After becoming an EEC member, Britain slowly began to catch up. Gross domestic product per person has grown faster than Italy, Germany and France in the more than 40 years since. By 2013, Britain became more prosperous than the average of the three other large European economies for the first time since 1965. To deny this is a bit like the Life of Brian sketch when the sceptics question what the governing power has done for them (nothing apart from fantastic growth in living standards, protected employment rights, ever safer product safety, free and unhindered access to a massive market place, 70 years of peace etc etc).

I'm tired of hearing that the EU is all about a faceless group of bureaucrats. There are elected MEPs in the EU parliament just as there are MPS in our own . The governing mechanisms of any political system always include armies of un-elected officials who regulate and administer. In this respect the EU is no different than the UK - The Civil Service, The Environment Agency, Trading Standards - non of these contain elected officials.

If we follow through with Brexit we are taking a massive gamble that, if goes wrong, will reverberate through the generations to come. I hope we will come to our senses and pull the plug on it while there is still time :roll: Seeing how things are currently going I'm quite hopeful of that or more likely that we will fudge it :wink:
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Post by Zeld4 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:37 pm

I for the life of me can’t understand any one would want Junker and Co over our democratically elected government. Obviously there seems to be a lot of dissolusion with our own politicians, but that’s exactly what the EU want. I actually think David Davis is doing a great job. And I’m sure he would call them all at the EC c**ts if he had to. What a legend.

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Would you vote differently now?

Post by rooha » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:02 pm

Zeld4 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:37 pm
I for the life of me can’t understand any one would want Junker and Co over our democratically elected government. Obviously there seems to be a lot of dissolusion with our own politicians, but that’s exactly what the EU want. I actually think David Davis is doing a great job. And I’m sure he would call them all at the EC c**ts if he had to. What a legend.
satire , right ? the only other option is that david davis is a secret forum member :lol:

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Post by Mr Tidy » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:03 pm

Vornwend wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:27 pm
The problem with all this harking back to a so called golden era is that there are absolutely no facts to back it up. These are the actual facts: Britian has done far better in the EU than it ever did before it joined. Britain joined what was then the European Economic Community in 1973 as the sick man of Europe. By the late 1960s, France, West Germany and Italy — the three founder members closest in size to the UK — produced more per person than it did and the gap grew larger every year. Between 1958, when the EEC was set up, and Britain’s entry in 1973, gross domestic product per head rose 95 per cent in these three countries compared with only 50 per cent in Britain. After becoming an EEC member, Britain slowly began to catch up. Gross domestic product per person has grown faster than Italy, Germany and France in the more than 40 years since. By 2013, Britain became more prosperous than the average of the three other large European economies for the first time since 1965. To deny this is a bit like the Life of Brian sketch when the sceptics question what the governing power has done for them (nothing apart from fantastic growth in living standards, protected employment rights, ever safer product safety, free and unhindered access to a massive market place, 70 years of peace etc etc).
Maybe, but GDP per person in Britain might have grown at that rate even if Britain hadn't joined the EU - there is no factual basis to say otherwise.

But there is no doubt that we are now helping to fund a European state that our residents do not want to be part of - hence the referendum result.

This was a public referendum so the result reflects the view of the majority of the electorate that voted, rather than the votes of representatives who get elected and seem to forget that they were elected to represent the views of those who put them there!

Your side lost - get over it! :P
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Would you vote differently now?

Post by Vornwend » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 pm

I'd rather base my views on facts than might's or maybes. The great thing about democracy is that you can change your mind when you realise you've made a mistake. The vote did not give politicians a blank cheque and the electorate are entitled to a vote on the terms of the exit when they become clear. Thankfully we're still in and will be for years to come. By that time the generation that swung the vote will be a lot smaller :D
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Post by Mr Tidy » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:56 pm

Vornwend wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 pm
I'd rather base my views on facts than might's or maybes. The great thing about democracy is that you can change your mind when you realise you've made a mistake. The vote did not give politicians a blank cheque and the electorate are entitled to a vote on the terms of the exit when they become clear. Thankfully we're still in and will be for years to come. By that time the generation that swung the vote will be a lot smaller
Sorry, but why is the electorate entitled to a vote on the terms of the exit deal FFS?

That was never on the agenda, it was a one-off vote - IN or OUT.

As a lover of FACTS you need to recognise that the majority voted for OUT - and that is a FACT!

And I can't see my generation (and the one before it, or indeed after it) dying off any time soon with all the increases in age expectancy! :lol:

Long may you be thwarted - maybe you just want your student grant written off! :P
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Would you vote differently now?

Post by Zeld4 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:01 am

rooha wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:02 pm
Zeld4 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:37 pm
I for the life of me can’t understand any one would want Junker and Co over our democratically elected government. Obviously there seems to be a lot of dissolusion with our own politicians, but that’s exactly what the EU want. I actually think David Davis is doing a great job. And I’m sure he would call them all at the EC c**ts if he had to. What a legend.
satire , right ? the only other option is that david davis is a secret forum member :lol:
Well it’s not totally serious but who would be able to negotiate with the EU? Why is everyone giving our govenrmt a hard time, but there is absolutely no crittism of the way the EU are negotiating from the BBC or newspapers. So actually yes he’s not doing a bad job. He’s not crumbled like any lefty remoaner would. He’s standing his ground. I mean, what do you really think he can do in the situation?

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Post by Vornwend » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:29 am

Mr Tidy wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:56 pm
Vornwend wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 pm
I'd rather base my views on facts than might's or maybes. The great thing about democracy is that you can change your mind when you realise you've made a mistake. The vote did not give politicians a blank cheque and the electorate are entitled to a vote on the terms of the exit when they become clear. Thankfully we're still in and will be for years to come. By that time the generation that swung the vote will be a lot smaller
Sorry, but why is the electorate entitled to a vote on the terms of the exit deal FFS?

That was never on the agenda, it was a one-off vote - IN or OUT.

As a lover of FACTS you need to recognise that the majority voted for OUT - and that is a FACT!

And I can't see my generation (and the one before it, or indeed after it) dying off any time soon with all the increases in age expectancy! :lol:

Long may you be thwarted - maybe you just want your student grant written off! :P
The electorate are entitled to another vote simply because they didn't know what they were voting for :roll: Ridiclous to have a simple yes/ no vote on something so complicated. Cameron's attempt to stay in power that back fired big time.
The proportion of people in the generations who voted out will decrease over time, that is a fact of life. Almost 80% of the under 25's voted in.

University education was free in my day although I'm not sure I understand why that is relevant to the Brexit vote :?

At the end of the day and more than a year after the vote we're still in and the tide will surely turn :D
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Post by Mr Tidy » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:07 am

Vornwend wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:29 am
The electorate are entitled to another vote simply because they didn't know what they were voting for Ridiclous to have a simple yes/ no vote on something so complicated. Cameron's attempt to stay in power that back fired big time.
Why? There was a referendum in 1974 but no 2nd vote. And I'm sure the electorate then was no more aware of what they had voted for than this time.

Even the SNP seem to have realised you can't keep having a referendum until you get the result "you" want - why can't you come to terms with that?

Or don't you believe in democracy when it doesn't fit your agenda? :poke:
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Post by Smartbear » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:21 am

Mr Tidy wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:07 am
Vornwend wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:29 am
The electorate are entitled to another vote simply because they didn't know what they were voting for Ridiclous to have a simple yes/ no vote on something so complicated. Cameron's attempt to stay in power that back fired big time.
Why? There was a referendum in 1974 but no 2nd vote. And I'm sure the electorate then was no more aware of what they had voted for than this time.

Even the SNP seem to have realised you can't keep having a referendum until you get the result "you" want - why can't you come to terms with that?

Or don't you believe in democracy when it doesn't fit your agenda? :poke:
Reading some of the viewpoints on here I think you’ve just hit the nail on the head :roll:
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Post by original guvnor » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:28 am

Vornwend wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 pm
I'd rather base my views on facts than might's or maybes. The great thing about democracy is that you can change your mind when you realise you've made a mistake. The vote did not give politicians a blank cheque and the electorate are entitled to a vote on the terms of the exit when they become clear. Thankfully we're still in and will be for years to come. By that time the generation that swung the vote will be a lot smaller :D
On that basis you would never have agreed to enter the EEC in 1972 then.

The electorate was never given a vote on the creation of the internal market and everything that entailed in the Maastrict/Lisbon Treaties (free movement, supremacy of ECJ, increased power of the European Parliament etc).
Last edited by original guvnor on Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by PerryGunn » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:35 am

Mr Tidy wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:07 am
Or don't you believe in democracy when it doesn't fit your agenda? :poke:
He's just following the EU policies on reacting to referenda in which the public don't vote the way you want them to i.e. make them vote again until you get the 'correct' result - e.g. Irish referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon
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Post by Zeld4 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:22 am

Vornwend wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 pm
I'd rather base my views on facts than might's or maybes. The great thing about democracy is that you can change your mind when you realise you've made a mistake. The vote did not give politicians a blank cheque and the electorate are entitled to a vote on the terms of the exit when they become clear. Thankfully we're still in and will be for years to come. By that time the generation that swung the vote will be a lot smaller :D
I agree we should have a vote on whether to accept the deal the EU offer us, but if we don’t accept it we still must leave the EU, just without a deal. Can you imagine what deal we are offered if the EU know the British electorate will get to vote on it, and if we reject it we just stay in the EU? Exactly. It’s monumentally stupid to go in to a negotiation saying, if I don’t get what I want then everything is just going to stay the same, when the people you are negotiating with want it to stay the same.
And as the population is getting older, not younger, I think we’ll be safe if there was another referendum. With Junker talking about letting more countries and expanding the eurozone and creating a European army it’s looking even worse for the remainers.

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Post by Buckz » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:39 am

I wonder how you lot expect the monkeys in charge to run the country on their own when they can't get basics rights with the help of EU? I mean really, we've got no one in power who is capable of doing it. May is a complete wreck, Corbyn is all over the place..
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