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How to replace soft top motor without removing roof.. DONE!

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Ducklakeview
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How to replace soft top motor without removing roof.. DONE!

Post by Ducklakeview » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:31 am

ch_ryqmhho wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:27 am OK, update. I finally managed to get the thing out. Had to pry open the top of the case, then I could take out the motor and then the rest of the case. The motor was disgusting. If it wasn't for Ducklakeview I would have ordered a new one right away but he mentioned that these things can be brought back to life. Took me forever to figure out how to open it and where to apply force, but then some cleaning worked wonders.
So I put the motor back in and topped off hydraulic fluid (lost some when I detached the motor) and it runs fine (as in fast). Unfortunately very little power seems to get to the top. I undid the bowden cable attachment on the motor to make sure that the override valve wasn't stuck but that doesn't seem to be the problem.

When I manually put the top in the half open position, I can slowly move it in both directions for a bit. It's like there is only a fraction of the needed pressure going to the hydraulic cylinders....almost like it's pumping air. I read that these assemblies are self-bleeding. Is that really the case in all situations?
The motor, while going fast, also sounds kind of hollow and a little rattling. But that might just be because it's now hanging loosely in my trunk without any sound protection. Is it possible that I did not attached the pump to the hydraulic head (?) correctly? I noticed a little metal pin fall out that I put back in when I put things back together.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I've come so far, would be a shame if this didn't work out now.
Probably a seized bypass plunger, very common.

Mike

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Post by ch_ryqmhho » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:11 am

Mike, isn't that the piece that gets pushed in when the bowden cable is pulled? Seemed to me like the little thing is moving when I pushed it in with my fingertips. But then I don't know how much it is supposed to stick out. What would be the best way to "unseize" it?

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How to replace soft top motor without removing roof.. DONE!

Post by Ducklakeview » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:06 am

ch_ryqmhho wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:11 am Mike, isn't that the piece that gets pushed in when the bowden cable is pulled? Seemed to me like the little thing is moving when I pushed it in with my fingertips. But then I don't know how much it is supposed to stick out. What would be the best way to "unseize" it?
Yes, but it will still be seized, as the lever that operates it is loose in it's fixing anyway. Remove the three tiny screws from the black plastic cover, and you'll see a brass pin. THAT is the actual bypass, it should push in easily with your thumb and instantly pop all the way back out. It only travels about 2.5mm, but needs to come out as far as it's stop, otherwise the roof won't work. Soak it in release oil and get a pair of long nosed pliers on it, work it round and in and out until it's free. Just noticed that you said "a pin came out" was it a brass pin or a hardened steel one, a bit like a bearing roller?

Mike

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Post by ch_ryqmhho » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:25 am

Mike,

the little brass pin was moving pretty freely but I did put some lubricant on it and now it really seems to move pretty smoothly in and out. Situation is unchanged though. I can open the roof manually with zero resistance about 2 thirds of the way. Then sometimes I can push it harder an can hear a whirring from the hydraulic unit and can push it all the way back. Sometimes I encounter resistance that cannot be overcome. I can then press the opening button and the roof opens ever so slowly most of the way. The closing button never does anything. But I can then close the roof manually again without much resistance and start over. I don't seem to have a leak as I am not losing any hydraulic fluid. Still thinking that I might have lost a part when removing the motor or something. All I had was the little metal pin and the yellow plastic circle. Is there a diagram of the whole thing somewhere?

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Post by ch_ryqmhho » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:28 am

Here's a picture I found:
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Is this little black rectangular piece critical? I don't remember seeing it.

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How to replace soft top motor without removing roof.. DONE!

Post by Ducklakeview » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:33 pm

Yes, that part is critical, without it the motor shaft will wear the plastic wheel quickly and drive to the pump will be lost. I know as I recently had to replace one for a forum member who hadn't realised it was missing.

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Post by ch_ryqmhho » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:39 pm

Oh, so where does it go? does it go into the middle opening of the plastic disk?

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Post by Ducklakeview » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:33 pm

ch_ryqmhho wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:39 pm Oh, so where does it go? does it go into the middle opening of the plastic disk?
There is a slot on the underside of the disc that it fits into.

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Post by ch_ryqmhho » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:41 am

Mike, thank you, found the part and figured it out in the meantime. Who would have thought that such a tiny piece of metal makes all the difference. Luckily the disc wasn't worn too badly yet and now the rattling has stopped and the pump is actually working!

Now the roof is (mostly) moving and I am experiencing a phenomenon that I noticed before the motor gave out in the first place: while the system can easily close the roof, it doesn't have enough "pull" to open it from the closed position. I need to help manually. Interestingly, a couple times I managed to move the roof back and forth a little bit several time and the pulling strength increased to the point that it could open by itself. After closing the roof again it was back to being too weak though.

Any ideas? I understand that this is not a motor issue anymore. I'm clueless though.

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Post by Steveo1570 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:01 am

Hi,
Just like to thank everyone who has contributed on this post, after weeks on and off trying finally managed to get the motor to the boot. I wasn't able to get the whole plastic casing out but managed to get the lid off by hooking it with the end of a bungee chord and ripping it off. Gained access to the casing from behind the passenger seat. So relieved as this is one of the most frustrating jobs I've ever attempted on the car!
I think the motor is terminal though, spins freely with fingers but no life when powered up. Have got it soaking in diesel now but not holding my breath. :(
One question though, should there be a spring on the steel pin inside the pump? I've heard others mention it but can't find it (pump did fall apart when I removed motor).
3.0 Auto. Sapphire Black. Red M Sport leather seats, Electric and heated. Sat/Nav. All standard, exactly the same as the day it came out of the factory except for the stubby! Oh, and the 170,000+ miles on the clock!

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Post by ch_ryqmhho » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:08 pm

Found someone online who wrote that they suffered from a "fractured relief valve body". That got me thinking. Mike, do you think it's possible that the bypass valve works well in one direction (closing the roof) but doesn't seal completely in the other direction (opening the roof)? I'm thinking of switching the hydraulic lines and also switching the electrical connections to test if this reverses the behavior. Would such a test work?

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How to replace soft top motor without removing roof.. DONE!

Post by Ducklakeview » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:40 pm

ch_ryqmhho wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:41 am Mike, thank you, found the part and figured it out in the meantime. Who would have thought that such a tiny piece of metal makes all the difference. Luckily the disc wasn't worn too badly yet and now the rattling has stopped and the pump is actually working!

Now the roof is (mostly) moving and I am experiencing a phenomenon that I noticed before the motor gave out in the first place: while the system can easily close the roof, it doesn't have enough "pull" to open it from the closed position. I need to help manually. Interestingly, a couple times I managed to move the roof back and forth a little bit several time and the pulling strength increased to the point that it could open by itself. After closing the roof again it was back to being too weak though.

Any ideas? I understand that this is not a motor issue anymore. I'm clueless though.

Mine does that, the pump on it is weaker in one direction than the other. I've confirmed this by swapping the hoses, and it does it in the other direction. I've had the pump out, stripped it and messed with the two adjustments, it's better, but still not perfect, needs a shove with the hand to get it opening, but is fine then and closes perfectly. Keeping my eye out for a used pump so I can rip mine to pieces and have a play to see what fails. In the meantime, I just hit the button for half a second (gaptech RCH+ fitted) and as it unlocks I accelerate away which makes it open on it's own, and is also a good xcuse for getting off the line sharpish "Officer, I was opening my roof, honest...)

Mike

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How to replace soft top motor without removing roof.. DONE!

Post by enzed4 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:49 am

Ducklakeview wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:40 pm ...Keeping my eye out for a used pump so I can rip mine to pieces and have a play to see what fails.
Mike
When mine failed I replaced it with a new unit, but then decided to have a go at reviving the faulty one. Not surprisingly it was easily resurrected and I've tested it in the car successfully. It's been sitting in the garage as 'insurance' should the new unit suffer the same fate as the original (hopefully not as the car is kept garaged and doesn't go out in the wet much).
Perhaps we could work something out between my soft top motor and your modded exhaust? :)
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Post by ch_ryqmhho » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:18 pm

Mike, so I'm not the only one with that problem...good to know. I wonder why the pump works better in one direction than the other. You mentioned some adjustment screws....are there any pictures or diagrams to be found anywhere? Would like to have a look at it. You don't think it could be the bypass valve that doesn't seal properly in one direction?
I'm currently looking to sell the car, so I need this fixed completely. Is a new hydraulic unit the only way out then?

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How to replace soft top motor without removing roof.. DONE!

Post by Ducklakeview » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:16 pm

ch_ryqmhho wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:18 pm Mike, so I'm not the only one with that problem...good to know. I wonder why the pump works better in one direction than the other. You mentioned some adjustment screws....are there any pictures or diagrams to be found anywhere? Would like to have a look at it. You don't think it could be the bypass valve that doesn't seal properly in one direction?
I'm currently looking to sell the car, so I need this fixed completely. Is a new hydraulic unit the only way out then?
Remove the big jubilee clip and inside these are 2 x 4mm hex headed bolts, try adjusting them half a turn in each direction..

Mike

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