Auto or manual

[GuidoK]

but to suggest people that consider a 0-60 as relevant are stupid... well.

Well if you go and test 0-60 times with a 10hz gps like I did, you'll find that it is very very difficult to get consistent times within the time scope that was portrayed (0,2sec), especially if you have some power under the bonnet on a 2wd car. So to pass a judgement on that (as the argument was) is imho irrelevant as it will hold no real value. 60-120 or 40-80 (maybe even 0-120) is imho probably more relevant if you want to give real value to acceleration.
And 'stupid' is your choice of words. My choice of words was 'real enthousiast', and I stand by that if you're buying a sportscar/roadster and 0.2sec difference in a 0-60 acceleration is the benchmark or deciding factor. I think an enthousiast looks for involvement when driving. At least that's how it works for me.

But they keep it in the right gear and never miss a gear selection!

You think?
When for example approching a corner (or a traffic light), you lift off the throttle and shift down. At least if you had a proper instructor that's what you're supposed to do. You think an auto box can do that?
If any it will shift up. An auto box cant do anticipated shifts, and anticipating while driving is what it's all about imho.
BMW is experimenting with gps systems coupled to autoboxes to use that information to estimate what the proper next gear will be. If the autobox was always in the right gear they would not bother with that nou would they?
Why do you think cars with autoboxes generally suffer more from brake wear?


Missing a gear selection is a measure of how capable someone is. Maybe there are loads of people that are not capable enough to operate the workings of a car. Probably? (I dont know). Those kinds of people indeed also may wonder what gear they need. For those people an auto box probably is a good idea. If you dont know how to shift or dont know what the best gear is...sure.

[ronk]

People just say look at that silver haired auld fart in that sports car !

[ronk]

To answer your question, I did have a proper instructor - indeed I learned to drive in car with a crash box - so being in the correct gear was very important as the change wasn't as quick as a modern all synchro box that I guess you're used to.


Ps are you telling us you've never missed a gear or been in the wrong gear ? Be honest now!

[jimmybell]

Ps are you telling us you've never missed a gear or been in the wrong gear ? Be honest now!

He's perfect and only ever does the most enthusiast-based actions possible, didn't you read?

Must be thousands of people on pistonheads now massively disappointed to hear they're not enthusiasts after he's clarified exactly what one is. Maybe i'll emmigrate to a country where automatic cars have a place, and standing start acceleration is something that's allowed.

i'll stop. teehee.

[GuidoK]

Ps are you telling us you've never missed a gear or been in the wrong gear ? Be honest now!

Not that I can remember.
I dont understand that you make such a big deal out of it, I also cant remember sitting in a car with someone that is missing shifts either, except my dad but he is getting really old and doesnt hear that well anymore, trembling hands etc.
When I noticed that and he was ready for a new car I recommended him an automatic, and now he says it was the right choice because of that. Somehow when you're getting old you're getting past a point where somehow things get difficult that used to be easy somehow.
Not that I sit in cars with people all the time....but still...

But here's another example
With spirited driving, when you shift in the wrong gear, there's a 50% chance it's a higher gear and 50% chance it's a lower gear, right?
When accidentally hitting a lower gear and lifting off the clutch you'll probably destroy the engine. When do you hear that ever happening?
I've been with lots of people for instance to the alps where there was a lot of spirited driving (basically racing across the passes), and no one blew their engine. So in my book all those people also didn't miss a gear where there was a lot of shifing.
I don't think it's that common as you're trying to make it believe to be.

Maybe it's an english problem where the shift lever is on the left and most people are righthanded?
Or when people use that argument it says more about themselves than about others?
I dont see the big deal in it. I also never steered to the left when I wanted to steer to the right if that's your next question in a topic about cars that steer themselves....

Another thing an automatic usually cant do is skip multiple gears. When I want to overtake someone quickly, it's very common to change back from 6th to 3rd. I dont think there's any automatic that can do that in their kickdown mode (some may skip 1 gear?). If it goes to 5th, then 4th and then 3rd, it was twice in the wrong gear...

[ronk]

Im sorry to hear that your father is deaf and has trembling hands etc. Is he very old ?

[GuidoK]

He's not really deaf but his hearing gets a bit worse, so is his balance (that's maybe related) etc etc, a lot of the ususal men old age stuff. He's almost 75 but still reasonably active etc. He still rides and tinkers on old english motorcycles...
I think at that age it's a blessing that you dont have cancer or another life threatening condition with horrible prognosed sick-bed...especially as he smoked all his life like a chimney...(I have a friend who is pulmonologist and from what I hear lung cancer is not the best way to die so to speak...)

But it's strange to see that when you get old there is a point that the motorics and the general 'qui-vive' get worse. For every individual at what age that is is different of course.
He used to be a very skilled driver imho (driving +50k miles a year mostly in heavy traffic etc and going decades without accidents), but you can see that it's not as tight as it's used to be. Like placement of the car in a parking space, driving line through the corners.
It's just that tiny bit more sloppy. He's by no means a danger on the road, but it's not as tight as say 10 years ago. It used to be 100% and now its 80%.
What I mostly noticed that he repeatedly was in too lower gears when going through corners; mostly tight ones in residential areas (on speeds where 2nd gear or sometimes 1st gear is necessary) where he probably didnt hear the engine (diesel in this case) humming on too low revs. That's when I said that an automatic would probably suit him better.

[ronk]

What I mostly noticed that he repeatedly was in too lower gears when going through corners; mostly tight ones in residential areas (on speeds where 2nd gear or sometimes 1st gear is necessary) .....

I don't understand what you mean ?

[GuidoK]

When an engine makes too little revs it starts to hum really low, which is a sign of revs too low. Then you have to shift to a lower gear.
When you dont have that aural feedback apparanty you can be tempted to drive in a gear too high.

I'm not sure what part you dont understand. What I ment to say is that he was frequently in third gear when he should have been in second and frequently in 2nd gear when he should have been in first.

[ronk]

You said he was "too lower gears "?
I didn't know if you meant TWO lower gears or TO low a gear - and then none of that made sence when you spoke of low revs.

You obviously meant he was in a gear or two higher than you though he ought to have been?

The term for insufficient revs and too much load is normally referred to as labouring !

I've no doubt that you will know that the torque curve of a Diesel engine is fundamentally different from a petrol engine,so don't criticise your father too much - he may just be exploitng the potential and ability of his engine - he may not want to blast into "Acaia" avenue heal an toeing with 6k on the tacho

[R.E92]

It's hard to argue against the DCT transmission. It really fixes all the shortcomings of a standard auto.

There's been a few good YouTube videos posted with identical cars, one manual and one DCT and the DCT always opens up a huge gap purely because of the shift speeds so in the real world it's a quicker car.
I think the drivetrain losses between manual and DCT are identical so there is no power disadvantage like with a slushbox.

Wrong gear selection for corners shouldn't be an issue. If you want to drive quickly you always want the box in manual mode, auto is just for cruising.

The DCT box will even hold more torque if you ever decide to tune the car. The manual box needs an upgraded clutch and flywheel when going for big power.

Manuals are more fun though and given a choice between a manual and slushbox the manual would win all day! Between a DCT and a manual it's a much harder choice.

[ronk]

Have you tried the later 8 speed box ?
I'm told it has a smaller torque converter.
In my experience it is not as "squishy" for want of a better word, than its predecessor ! In sport mode it is a very quick / sharp change. Much faster than a manual box.

[R.E92]

Have you tried the later 8 speed box ?
I'm told it has a smaller torque converter.
In my experience it is not as "squishy" for want of a better word, than its predecessor ! In sport mode it is a very quick / sharp change. Much faster than a manual box.

I think so. Had an 8 speed 320d as a courtesy car.

I wasn't impressed, it felt just as slushy as previous BMW auto boxs but it's possible that there are differnet 8 speeds available and I just had the sh***y one.

[GuidoK]

You said he was "too lower gears "?
I didn't know if you meant TWO lower gears or TO low a gear - and then none of that made sence when you spoke of low revs.

You obviously meant he was in a gear or two higher than you though he ought to have been?

I'm sorry, yes I meant a gear too high. High gear -> low ratio sometimes confuses me (too higher or lower gear is a bad dutch->english translation , it's a gear too high or a gear too low I think?, so 2 errors in 1 line )

The term for insufficient revs and too much load is normally referred to as labouring !

I didnt know that word but yes that is what I mean. With diesels you can also have that (indeed I'm very familiar with diesel engines ), and it's I think a result of having the the bang too far before tdc in relation to the size of the bang. That can happen with any piston combustion engine, diesel or petrol. But he already said the auto was the right choice.
He frequently drives my daily which is basically the same car he has but then a manual, and what he probably misses most is overtaking, so the ability to instantly shift back and there is power, and with the automatic there always is some lag, shifting 1 or 2 gears down and not having full power during that.

[GuidoK]

The DCT box will even hold more torque if you ever decide to tune the car. The manual box needs an upgraded clutch and flywheel when going for big power.

Depends on what dct (wet clutch)/dry clutch.
In essence a wet clutch can hold less torque so they use multiple plates. But dct/wet clutches are more tight on tolerance and over torque than a dry clutch, and are very difficult/expensive to upgrade.
The most important thing about the dct is the software. DCT is only fast when the proper next gear is selected, so how accurate and well written the software is. Lots of people complain with slow DCT/DSG gearboxes (I'm talking in general now, not exclusively the getrag DCT) and that is most often on difficult short stretches (like hairpins on mountain passes) where accelerating is followed up with heavy breaking and shifting down. If the wrong gear is preselected, the dct suddenly gets really slow.
An automatic doesnt have this problem because all gears are always preselected simultaniously (every geartwin has it's seperate clutch)