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Monkey mans power adder

2003 - 2009, roadster, coupe, facelift
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Mister T
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Post by Mister T » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:04 am

Machine monkey wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:13 pm
Mister T wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm Plug and play replacement for the factory DME:

https://www.scs-delta.co.uk/product-page/bmw-e46-330
I will take a look at this. But I think I have looked at this and dismissed it previously for being a bit basic. But if it works I might look again.
My mate Gary (ap-tuning.co.uk) knows quite a lot about them, he's runs a Delta ECU in his Time Attack car. Would probably be worth having a chat with him about it.

https://www.facebook.com/RevoAPT/

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Bad_Pritt
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Post by Bad_Pritt » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:27 pm

Monkey is at it again! What an insane, dangerous and crazy build!! I love it :-)
I never heard of rear mounted turbos either, you could build a fake backbox with the turbos hidden in them, just for the fun of it. lol

Great build man, I'm following this one :popcorn:
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Post by Machine monkey » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:46 pm

Mister T wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:04 am
Machine monkey wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:13 pm
Mister T wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm Plug and play replacement for the factory DME:

https://www.scs-delta.co.uk/product-page/bmw-e46-330
I will take a look at this. But I think I have looked at this and dismissed it previously for being a bit basic. But if it works I might look again.
My mate Gary (ap-tuning.co.uk) knows quite a lot about them, he's runs a Delta ECU in his Time Attack car. Would probably be worth having a chat with him about it.

https://www.facebook.com/RevoAPT/
That’s great and just what I need a bit of reassurance on this. I have messaged them. To see if it will work in a z4 or if they can get to. I am coming round to this idea.
My little blue zed is in lots of bits. With lots of things started and not many finished! I may have found the limits of my time and ability!!

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Post by Machine monkey » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:49 pm

pokeybritches wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:23 pm The issue is the tools to tune the ECU are outrageously expensive.

Injectors are easy to account for, once you have those tools. The injectors should have come with a matrix of values that are plugged into the tuned file.

The adjustments needed for the modified intake system are different and require a bit of tweaking. The transfer function for the MAF sensor can be figured out with a bit of trial and error (if you’ve modified the intake system at all, which you have in this case, then the transfer function changes... even if it is the same MAF sensor). You can probably get away with not tweaking the transfer function on your car, but it will only give you a tune that’s “close” and not optimal.

Most tuners don’t mess with the factory tables for part throttle / closed loop values, because once the injector values and intake is accounted for, the fuel trims are pretty close. Tuners extend the WOT / open loop maps and make their adjustments there. You’ll either need a data logger or dyno in addition to the software to edit the fuel maps.

To get the fuel maps, software companies decrypt the ECU and find patterns to determine fuel maps. These files are sold to tuners, who then make their tweaks (meaning there’s a cost involved, even if you do the tuning yourself). No one to my knowledge has cracked the MS45.0 DME and offered the ability to modify fuel tables via open source source software.

A dyno is preferable to have when you adjust the fuel tables. AFR, timing, Vanos adjustment, etc. are kinda up to the tuner, but there are standard techniques you can employ to get a solid, safe tune.

Even if you input the injector tables, modify the transfer function for the intake system and MAF, and get your open loop fuel tables right, you still need the software to remove things like the torque limiter that’s buried in the programming of the DME.

TLDR: Pay a reputable tuner, and not someone that offers a generic flash with slightly altered fuel tables for an otherwise standard car. When my supercharged Z4 was modified beyond the standard VF kit, the tuner had to build the files from scratch... which took days for a pro with his own personal dyno. My advice is to not try to tune it yourself, because the necessary tools are beyond the scope of your project.
Thanks lots of good advice and knowlage I will be hopfilkt making lots of phone calls. Reading and thinking a lot next week!!
My little blue zed is in lots of bits. With lots of things started and not many finished! I may have found the limits of my time and ability!!

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Post by Machine monkey » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:50 pm

Bad_Pritt wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:27 pm Monkey is at it again! What an insane, dangerous and crazy build!! I love it :-)
I never heard of rear mounted turbos either, you could build a fake backbox with the turbos hidden in them, just for the fun of it. lol

Great build man, I'm following this one :popcorn:
Yeah it is a bit!! Thanks buddy :thumbsup:
My little blue zed is in lots of bits. With lots of things started and not many finished! I may have found the limits of my time and ability!!

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Post by Stevie.w » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:08 am

pokeybritches wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:23 pm The issue is the tools to tune the ECU are outrageously expensive.

Injectors are easy to account for, once you have those tools. The injectors should have come with a matrix of values that are plugged into the tuned file.

The adjustments needed for the modified intake system are different and require a bit of tweaking. The transfer function for the MAF sensor can be figured out with a bit of trial and error (if you’ve modified the intake system at all, which you have in this case, then the transfer function changes... even if it is the same MAF sensor). You can probably get away with not tweaking the transfer function on your car, but it will only give you a tune that’s “close” and not optimal.

Most tuners don’t mess with the factory tables for part throttle / closed loop values, because once the injector values and intake is accounted for, the fuel trims are pretty close. Tuners extend the WOT / open loop maps and make their adjustments there. You’ll either need a data logger or dyno in addition to the software to edit the fuel maps.

To get the fuel maps, software companies decrypt the ECU and find patterns to determine fuel maps. These files are sold to tuners, who then make their tweaks (meaning there’s a cost involved, even if you do the tuning yourself). No one to my knowledge has cracked the MS45.0 DME and offered the ability to modify fuel tables via open source source software.

A dyno is preferable to have when you adjust the fuel tables. AFR, timing, Vanos adjustment, etc. are kinda up to the tuner, but there are standard techniques you can employ to get a solid, safe tune.

Even if you input the injector tables, modify the transfer function for the intake system and MAF, and get your open loop fuel tables right, you still need the software to remove things like the torque limiter that’s buried in the programming of the DME.

TLDR: Pay a reputable tuner, and not someone that offers a generic flash with slightly altered fuel tables for an otherwise standard car. When my supercharged Z4 was modified beyond the standard VF kit, the tuner had to build the files from scratch... which took days for a pro with his own personal dyno. My advice is to not try to tune it yourself, because the necessary tools are beyond the scope of your project.
Hi Monkeys.
I’m feeling your pain bud, we think the mechanical side would always be the difficult bit but it’s always the area we struggle to do ourselves that causes us grief.
My MX5 Turbo project has similar tuning issues and I purchased the full EcuTek software and hardware. I’m using a very good mapper and have lost count of the man hrs he’s spent. If you manage to source software to break into the ecu there will be lots of head scratching. There’s so many different tables to work between and it’ll have to be done on hub dyno or rolling road. The current reflash score on my MX5 is over 350! I hope your successful in finding a solution to your problem. Mines has been on going for over a year, but we’re nearly there st1 270/270 of both flavours now we’re pushing for 330 ish.
Best of luck with your epic project

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Post by Machine monkey » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:42 pm

Thanks Steve
Well it looks like the plug and play ECU is a non runner the company don’t seem keen to work at making it fit a z4.
And the plans to map the standard ecu seem to also be dead in the water. To much work and will probably cost more than a stand-alone.

So it’s bad news really. I am not sure what my next move is going to be.
My little blue zed is in lots of bits. With lots of things started and not many finished! I may have found the limits of my time and ability!!

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Post by GuidoK » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:56 pm

Machine monkey wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:42 pm
So it’s bad news really. I am not sure what my next move is going to be.
You can ask daniel_f to make an XDF/Damos for the ms45 z4 ecu maybe. Then you (your tuner) can use tunerpro (freeware).
Or convert to ms43 and use tunerpro. The ms43 is better tunable for FI.
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | fully polybushed | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers | Sachs Race Engineering clutch

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Post by Mister T » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:24 pm

Machine monkey wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:42 pm Thanks Steve
Well it looks like the plug and play ECU is a non runner the company don’t seem keen to work at making it fit a z4.
And the plans to map the standard ecu seem to also be dead in the water. To much work and will probably cost more than a stand-alone.

So it’s bad news really. I am not sure what my next move is going to be.
That's odd as I'm sure the SCS Delta is the control ECU in the Z Cars Racing series (3.0L Z4). Maybe try Gary Feakins Racing direct?

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Post by pokeybritches » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:37 pm

Machine monkey wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:49 pm Thanks lots of good advice and knowlage I will be hopfilkt making lots of phone calls. Reading and thinking a lot next week!!
You can try TTFS. How much boost are you running?
Supercharged Z4 3.0i, 2x Supercharged Z4M

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Post by GuidoK » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:03 pm

Mister T wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:24 pm
That's odd as I'm sure the SCS Delta is the control ECU in the Z Cars Racing series (3.0L Z4). Maybe try Gary Feakins Racing direct?
I'm not sure but didnt they run them with a digital dash and custom loom? So a complete strip of the car? (aka racecar setup)

Gary Feakins racing is bankrupt afaik; someone on here even lost his hardtop I think in that process.
Steer clear of that guy!
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | fully polybushed | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers | Sachs Race Engineering clutch

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Post by Machine monkey » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:45 pm

Trust me i have seen about this Gary fella!!! Giving him a WIDE birth that’s for sure.

Ok been a sh1tty few days for me my daughter has been ill. Nothing serious just a cold and a high temperature. She had an ambulance ride witch my wife said she found lots of fun. But she is on the mend.

As it stands......

SCS Delta might be taking my car to do some work to get the ecu to work?? If so they will then be offering a full plug and play ECU option for the z4. Nothing agreed and i maybe reading between the lines. I might also be getting 5 from 2+2!! But they have asked if my car is stock on the wiring loom side of things??? And a few other questions that lead me to this conclusion.

And i have been in talks with Advance Motorsport Engineering. They are local friendly and very knowledgeable. If option one does not work out with SCS i will be getting them to fit a link thunder and they have lots of experience getting them to work and getting the can bus up and running as it should.
My little blue zed is in lots of bits. With lots of things started and not many finished! I may have found the limits of my time and ability!!

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Post by Machine monkey » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:50 pm

OK great news so far SCS seem keen on using my car as a test bed for developing a fully integrated plug n play ECU for the z4.

If it comes off maybe my hard work and many hours emailing and calling people could benifit others on hear. If you have a modified z4 this should be an amazing and fairly cheap (in the world of standalone ECUs) upgrade.

Cross your fingers forum friends that it works out.
My little blue zed is in lots of bits. With lots of things started and not many finished! I may have found the limits of my time and ability!!

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Post by ph001 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:28 pm

That's amazing news!!! Well done for persisting.
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Post by Machine monkey » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:54 pm

ph001 wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:28 pm That's amazing news!!! Well done for persisting.
Haven’t crossed the I’sor dotted any T’s yet but it’s looking good this far.
My little blue zed is in lots of bits. With lots of things started and not many finished! I may have found the limits of my time and ability!!

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